Special Series: Racism and Health: Episode II

Transcript

00:00 --> 00:03Hello and welcome to another episode of the
00:03 --> 00:07Yale Journal of biology and medicine podcasts.
00:07 --> 00:10YJBM is a pub Med indexed
00:10 --> 00:12quarterly Journal edited by Yale
00:12 --> 00:15medical graduate and professional
00:15 --> 00:18students and peer reviewed by experts
00:18 --> 00:20in the fields of biology and medicine.
00:21 --> 00:24I'm your host Wes Lewis at 2nd year
00:24 --> 00:26graduate student in computational
00:26 --> 00:28biology and Bioinformatics,
00:28 --> 00:31and I'll cut right to the Chase.
00:31 --> 00:33These are times of mass protesting
00:33 --> 00:35major legal action and international
00:35 --> 00:37calls for reform.
00:37 --> 00:38Although we typically cover topics
00:38 --> 00:40that address the Biomedical Sciences,
00:40 --> 00:41Epidemiology,
00:41 --> 00:42and healthcare practice,
00:42 --> 00:45it's no secret that the systemic biases,
00:45 --> 00:45residential segregation,
00:45 --> 00:47violent responses to protesting,
00:47 --> 00:49and further injustices that we see
00:49 --> 00:51today all drive healthcare inequality
00:51 --> 00:54and informed the topics and methods of
00:54 --> 00:56research and practice for our audience.
00:56 --> 00:59In light of the recent murders
00:59 --> 01:01of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor,
01:01 --> 01:02and Elijah McClain.
01:02 --> 01:02Among others,
01:02 --> 01:05we've decided to use our platform as
01:05 --> 01:07an Avenue of communication for a steam
01:07 --> 01:10to researchers such as Doctor Monica Bell,
01:10 --> 01:12who will be talking to today.
01:12 --> 01:15Doctor Bell is an associate professor
01:15 --> 01:17of law and sociology at Yale,
01:17 --> 01:18with along with standing expertise
01:18 --> 01:20and topics of Criminal Justice,
01:20 --> 01:22housing inequality and welfare law,
01:22 --> 01:23she attended Furman University
01:23 --> 01:25for her undergraduate degree in
01:25 --> 01:27political science and sociology before
01:27 --> 01:29attending University College Dublin.
01:29 --> 01:30For her Masters, inequality studies,
01:30 --> 01:33Harvard University for her AM and
01:33 --> 01:35PhD in sociology, and social policy.
01:35 --> 01:38And Yale University for her JD.
01:38 --> 01:39Her research and written work covers
01:39 --> 01:41such topics as police reform,
01:41 --> 01:42racing, class segregation,
01:42 --> 01:43and criminal justice.
01:43 --> 01:45As a group of editors and collaborators,
01:45 --> 01:47we at the Yale Journal Biology and
01:47 --> 01:49medicine are immensely glad to have
01:49 --> 01:51doctor Bell on our podcast today.
01:51 --> 01:54Hi Monica, how are you?
01:54 --> 01:55I'm doing just fine.
01:55 --> 01:56How are you?
01:56 --> 01:58So although I'm excited to
01:58 --> 02:00talk about current events,
02:00 --> 02:02I want to first take a step back
02:02 --> 02:04to learn the details of your path
02:04 --> 02:06as an academic and researcher.
02:06 --> 02:08How have your studies and research
02:08 --> 02:09interests evolved to date,
02:09 --> 02:11leading you to zero in on various
02:11 --> 02:12issues in law and policy?
02:13 --> 02:17Well, that's a That's a bit of a long story.
02:17 --> 02:19Um, but I think, uhm, you know,
02:19 --> 02:22I've been interested my whole life in issues
02:22 --> 02:24of racial justice and class inequality.
02:24 --> 02:26And the question wasn't
02:26 --> 02:28really what I would focus on,
02:28 --> 02:31but like what specific areas and how.
02:31 --> 02:35So I went to law school hoping to kind of do,
02:35 --> 02:37but I thought would be more
02:37 --> 02:38traditional civil rights work.
02:38 --> 02:42I found that to not be quite the path for me,
02:42 --> 02:45and I'll learn that I was more interested
02:45 --> 02:47in taking a sociological approach.
02:47 --> 02:51I really focusing on the people who
02:51 --> 02:54experience a kind of in a visceral way.
02:54 --> 02:57Race and class inequality,
02:57 --> 03:00and using drawing from that experience
03:00 --> 03:03to engage in conversations about law
03:03 --> 03:06and policy because so much of long
03:06 --> 03:09policy tends to be shaped without a
03:09 --> 03:11real involvement in the systematic
03:11 --> 03:15involvement of people who are most directly
03:15 --> 03:18affected by these policies and so.
03:18 --> 03:20That's that's how I kind of became
03:20 --> 03:23interested generally in issues of race,
03:23 --> 03:25class inequality and then specifically
03:25 --> 03:25on policing,
03:25 --> 03:28which is what I've well focus for.
03:28 --> 03:31Most of the past eight years of
03:31 --> 03:33that interest came out of working
03:33 --> 03:36at the Legal Aid Society of DC.
03:36 --> 03:38There I was working primarily
03:38 --> 03:40with low income black mothers.
03:40 --> 03:40You know,
03:40 --> 03:43people who are similar to to my
03:43 --> 03:46mom and but except in DC and not
03:46 --> 03:48in South Carolina where I'm from.
03:48 --> 03:49And,
03:49 --> 03:49uh.
03:49 --> 03:52Basically from them I was hearing
03:52 --> 03:55about really complicated stories,
03:55 --> 03:59so you know you want to say OK,
03:59 --> 04:02I want to focus on your family
04:02 --> 04:03law situation right now,
04:03 --> 04:06or I want to focus on welfare
04:06 --> 04:08benefits or something like that.
04:08 --> 04:10But everything was interconnected
04:10 --> 04:13and the common vector between a lot
04:13 --> 04:16of the different housing issues they
04:16 --> 04:18had child welfare system issues,
04:18 --> 04:18etc.
04:18 --> 04:19The common factor,
04:19 --> 04:22the common denominator was the police.
04:22 --> 04:25And so I've spent most of the
04:25 --> 04:27past decade focusing on kind
04:27 --> 04:29of police community concerns.
04:32 --> 04:34OK, that's very interesting.
04:34 --> 04:37So in the same vein, then,
04:37 --> 04:39what topics have been on
04:39 --> 04:41your mind in recent months,
04:41 --> 04:42especially as police reform is
04:42 --> 04:44being called for in a historic but
04:44 --> 04:45nonetheless polarizing capacity?
04:47 --> 04:49Yeah, I mean so, uh,
04:49 --> 04:51I think there have been several
04:51 --> 04:53different issues on my mind.
04:53 --> 04:56One is, you know, as I mentioned before,
04:56 --> 04:58I've been studying policing Anna.
04:58 --> 05:01Lot of the topics that we,
05:01 --> 05:04that or I guess a lot of people are
05:04 --> 05:07focusing on now for a long time.
05:07 --> 05:10And one of the things that I've
05:10 --> 05:12that's been on my mind has been.
05:12 --> 05:14Actually I've been surprised
05:14 --> 05:16by the amount of surprise.
05:16 --> 05:20People have displayed in relation not
05:20 --> 05:24just to the police violence but also.
05:24 --> 05:27The broader issues of racism you have
05:27 --> 05:30had so many white people reach out to me
05:30 --> 05:34who I haven't talked to you in along time,
05:34 --> 05:36to ask for advice on who they
05:36 --> 05:38should be donating to it.
05:38 --> 05:41Ask For more information about racism,
05:41 --> 05:42asking for reading resources,
05:42 --> 05:45and all of this sort of thing.
05:45 --> 05:46And that's been,
05:46 --> 05:49I don't understand why they're doing it,
05:49 --> 05:51but it's really surprising that
05:51 --> 05:53that's happening, and I find it.
05:53 --> 05:54Yeah,
05:54 --> 05:56I just found it sort of alarming
05:56 --> 05:59so that that has been one thing
05:59 --> 06:02that's on my mind is just kind of
06:02 --> 06:04how the issues that many people
06:04 --> 06:06who with whom I've done research
06:06 --> 06:08an myself issues that we've been
06:08 --> 06:10experiencing our entire lives are
06:10 --> 06:13really brand new to a lot of people.
06:13 --> 06:15That's one thing I've been thinking about.
06:15 --> 06:18Also kind of on an intellectual level.
06:18 --> 06:19One thing I've been.
06:19 --> 06:21Thinking through it,
06:21 --> 06:23I think is going to shape a
06:23 --> 06:25lot of my research.
06:25 --> 06:26Going forward is,
06:26 --> 06:26uhm,
06:26 --> 06:28this kind of the the aesthetics
06:28 --> 06:30of black misery and how they have
06:30 --> 06:32shaped so much of the conversation.
06:32 --> 06:35So this so you know I was
06:35 --> 06:36mentioning people reaching out.
06:36 --> 06:37It's like, Oh no,
06:37 --> 06:40I'm so sorry you have to deal
06:40 --> 06:42with so much as a black person.
06:42 --> 06:43And that's all true.
06:43 --> 06:46When we of course think about the
06:46 --> 06:48the video that really set the
06:48 --> 06:50nation a light and really the
06:50 --> 06:52world I mean there are people.
06:52 --> 06:54Across the globe concerned
06:54 --> 06:57about the brutal death of George
06:57 --> 07:00Floyd at the hands of Derek,
07:00 --> 07:04Show Van and the brutality of that death.
07:04 --> 07:06Is is undeniable.
07:06 --> 07:10And for many people who haven't been
07:10 --> 07:14paying attention for a long time,
07:14 --> 07:14for them,
07:14 --> 07:17they think they now have an understanding
07:17 --> 07:20of the black experience through
07:20 --> 07:23the lens of George Floyd's death.
07:23 --> 07:25And one thing that stands out to me
07:25 --> 07:28and I I think about this actually
07:28 --> 07:31in the context of Chris Cooper and
07:31 --> 07:34Amy Cooper incident in Central Park,
07:34 --> 07:36which you know like these these
07:36 --> 07:38things for many black people
07:38 --> 07:41are very routine that that type
07:41 --> 07:43of interaction is not uncommon,
07:43 --> 07:45just something I've experienced myself and.
07:45 --> 07:46You know you,
07:46 --> 07:48you know some crystal was trying
07:48 --> 07:50to do is bird watching.
07:50 --> 07:51You know,
07:51 --> 07:53like he's really into that
07:53 --> 07:54and there's all there.
07:54 --> 07:56All these aspects of life that
07:56 --> 07:58bring black people joy become.
07:58 --> 08:00Tainted by racism,
08:00 --> 08:03but are not completely defined by it in,
08:03 --> 08:05so I'm really interested
08:05 --> 08:08in how how law and policy
08:08 --> 08:11could be marshaled in ways that
08:11 --> 08:12aren't about keeping black
08:13 --> 08:15people from experiencing racism.
08:15 --> 08:18I mean, that's a good goal,
08:18 --> 08:21but also there are more
08:21 --> 08:23about protecting black joy.
08:23 --> 08:26An enabling black joy and flourishing,
08:26 --> 08:28and that is that might.
08:28 --> 08:29Sound too nuanced,
08:29 --> 08:32but that's the thing I've been
08:32 --> 08:34thinking about a lot as the
08:34 --> 08:36conversation has been unfolding.
08:36 --> 08:38This kind of reckoning we're finally
08:38 --> 08:41having with racism in this country.
08:42 --> 08:45That's the end with that reckoning.
08:45 --> 08:48Obviously, protesting has been such
08:48 --> 08:51an important hot topic recently.
08:51 --> 08:54Do you have any thoughts about the recent
08:54 --> 08:57divisiveness of protesting and web?
08:57 --> 09:00Probably goes back a very long time.
09:00 --> 09:03This idea that people are going are
09:03 --> 09:05invalidating protests because of
09:05 --> 09:07the acts of soul individuals rather
09:07 --> 09:10than recognizing the hundreds of
09:10 --> 09:12thousands of people that clearly
09:12 --> 09:14are standing up to voice their
09:14 --> 09:17qualms with the way that policing
09:17 --> 09:19currently exists in the United States.
09:19 --> 09:22And with the state of.
09:22 --> 09:24Racial inequality yeah, yeah, you
09:24 --> 09:27know, it's interesting because one of
09:27 --> 09:30the features about this particular moment
09:30 --> 09:33of protest that's been quite fascinating
09:33 --> 09:37is that the focus that often arises on
09:37 --> 09:40property damage or what some people would
09:40 --> 09:43call booting in the context of protest.
09:43 --> 09:47In this moment of protest is not is
09:47 --> 09:50is basically not necessarily black.
09:50 --> 09:54The black protesters are black lives matter.
09:54 --> 09:56Protesters who visually even have
09:56 --> 10:00been doing that, and so there's this
10:00 --> 10:02interesting way in which ultimately,
10:02 --> 10:05because in part because of the
10:05 --> 10:08racial diversity of the people,
10:08 --> 10:13engage in protest and in the property damage.
10:13 --> 10:14President Trump essentially had
10:14 --> 10:17to say Oh the Antifa,
10:17 --> 10:20and so when you start companies about Antifa,
10:20 --> 10:23it is sort of it kind of has real egitim
10:24 --> 10:27eighted even in that kind of respectability.
10:27 --> 10:30Politics sort of way is legitimated.
10:30 --> 10:33The black lives matter aspect of the protest,
10:33 --> 10:36and I think one thing this this
10:36 --> 10:39this exciting is that even though
10:39 --> 10:41I think early in the conversation,
10:41 --> 10:44there's a lot of focus on this.
10:44 --> 10:46Property damage and of course I
10:46 --> 10:48mean the easy responses.
10:48 --> 10:50Why do you care more about property
10:50 --> 10:52damage that you care about black life?
10:52 --> 10:55Why do you care more about property damage?
10:55 --> 10:57Do you care about the health and
10:57 --> 10:59safety of these protesters who were
10:59 --> 11:01being maced and sprayed and beaten?
11:01 --> 11:03Why is that that your party?
11:03 --> 11:06But I think maybe more Interestingly,
11:06 --> 11:11is that, UM? The.
11:11 --> 11:16People saw that video right and I think.
11:16 --> 11:18There are always people who
11:18 --> 11:21are going to say Oh well,
11:21 --> 11:23why don't they protest in
11:23 --> 11:24a more respectable way?
11:24 --> 11:27There will always be people who try
11:27 --> 11:30to use property damage as an excuse to
11:30 --> 11:32invalidate claims to racial justice,
11:32 --> 11:35but I think they've actually been.
11:35 --> 11:37They haven't had control over
11:37 --> 11:38the larger conversation.
11:38 --> 11:40I think there's been a real.
11:40 --> 11:42A real recognition.
11:42 --> 11:44That, uh,
11:44 --> 11:47whatever the protesters devices are,
11:47 --> 11:49the concerns are real,
11:49 --> 11:51and so I come.
11:51 --> 11:55I'm not too worried about that to
11:55 --> 11:57be honest as.
11:57 --> 11:59As a major factor in our conversation.
12:01 --> 12:03That's good, and then likewise,
12:03 --> 12:06do you have any thoughts about
12:06 --> 12:08just the response to protests?
12:08 --> 12:11The fact that in protesting the
12:11 --> 12:14police that so many further incidents
12:14 --> 12:17have been revealed of police
12:17 --> 12:19brutality towards protesters and.
12:19 --> 12:21Those dynamics, as of recent
12:21 --> 12:25weeks? Yeah, yeah, I mean so.
12:25 --> 12:27The the police wrist.
12:27 --> 12:29So there are multiple multiple
12:29 --> 12:31things in your question so so
12:31 --> 12:33one of them is that the police.
12:33 --> 12:36Have been responding in this kind of
12:36 --> 12:38heavy handed are often violent way to
12:38 --> 12:41protesters now and even to white protesters.
12:41 --> 12:43Uh, you know, simple.
12:43 --> 12:46Oh, I'm so surprised that they
12:46 --> 12:48would respond to white protesters
12:48 --> 12:51display and I think there are a few
12:51 --> 12:53different things we're seeing there.
12:53 --> 12:56One is and I think
12:56 --> 12:57conversations about police,
12:57 --> 12:59budgets and militarization
12:59 --> 13:00have revealed this.
13:00 --> 13:05Police have access to a lot of.
13:05 --> 13:06Shield equipment,
13:06 --> 13:08tactical equipment, weaponry, etc.
13:08 --> 13:12They don't routinely need to use uhm and so
13:12 --> 13:17that means they sometimes use these for.
13:17 --> 13:18For situations that that force
13:18 --> 13:20there really unnecessary,
13:20 --> 13:22you know query whether there ever necessary.
13:22 --> 13:24But like let's say no.
13:24 --> 13:27Even if you think they are sometimes,
13:27 --> 13:28uhm, they've been.
13:28 --> 13:30They've been using them a lot,
13:30 --> 13:33which is so so there's an argument there.
13:33 --> 13:36Which is to say.
13:36 --> 13:38If there were fewer of
13:38 --> 13:40these types of resources,
13:40 --> 13:42they would be deployed less
13:42 --> 13:43frequently and let seriously,
13:43 --> 13:46but there's a much larger sort of
13:46 --> 13:48cultural kind of police culture story
13:48 --> 13:51I think is important to raise here,
13:51 --> 13:53which is that really for
13:53 --> 13:54the past several decades.
13:54 --> 13:56I would say that would mean that
13:56 --> 13:59this is really rough starting point,
13:59 --> 14:03but I would say maybe starting in the 1920s,
14:03 --> 14:04almost 100 years ago.
14:04 --> 14:07There's been this long, uh.
14:07 --> 14:09Mission toward police professionalization
14:09 --> 14:13which is the this embrace of an idea
14:13 --> 14:16that the police are the predominant
14:16 --> 14:18institution tasked with creating
14:18 --> 14:21public safety and in the service
14:21 --> 14:24of doing that there there was this
14:24 --> 14:26kind of modernization effort.
14:26 --> 14:27Though there's training.
14:27 --> 14:29There's consistent uniforms, cars.
14:29 --> 14:32I'm so I'm thinking now about
14:32 --> 14:34the work of Sarah CEO,
14:34 --> 14:36who's this really fascinating
14:36 --> 14:39historian at University of Iowa.
14:39 --> 14:42Like there is a way in which all
14:42 --> 14:46of these gadgets and tactics and
14:46 --> 14:50then coupled with court decisions.
14:50 --> 14:53So there have been a number
14:53 --> 14:55of court decisions,
14:55 --> 14:59most prominently Terry versus Ohio in 1960s,
14:59 --> 15:02which basically legitamate deference
15:02 --> 15:04to police officers judgments
15:04 --> 15:08about matters of safety in matters
15:08 --> 15:10of security and suspicion.
15:10 --> 15:11And over the past,
15:11 --> 15:14I guess I would say five to six
15:14 --> 15:17years I'm in the in the heart of
15:17 --> 15:20the black lives matter movement,
15:20 --> 15:22especially after the deaths of.
15:22 --> 15:25Michael Brown and Tamir Rice in
15:25 --> 15:2820 fourteen 2015 at a time frame
15:28 --> 15:30in their corner, of course,
15:30 --> 15:32like those deaths in particular
15:32 --> 15:35and pull built movement energy,
15:35 --> 15:38and I think over that time there's
15:38 --> 15:41been a shifting in the conversation.
15:41 --> 15:44So even after all that professionalization
15:44 --> 15:48is going to shift of the conversation to say,
15:48 --> 15:50to start questioning you had like
15:50 --> 15:53should the police be equated.
15:53 --> 15:56With public safety it is that narrative
15:56 --> 15:58on something that is verifiable
15:58 --> 16:01based on what we see going on around us,
16:01 --> 16:03and I think it's been really
16:03 --> 16:04frustrating to the police,
16:04 --> 16:05right?
16:05 --> 16:07Like it's it's like your
16:07 --> 16:08whole professional identity is
16:08 --> 16:11built on the idea that you are a
16:11 --> 16:13provider of public safety, an when the
16:13 --> 16:16world writ large is saying are you.
16:16 --> 16:18I'm not sure for the first time
16:18 --> 16:21in decades that is mad name and
16:21 --> 16:23I think that helps drive some of
16:23 --> 16:26the response we see to the protest
16:26 --> 16:28because they put the entire.
16:28 --> 16:30And professional legitimacy of
16:30 --> 16:32policing is being questioned.
16:32 --> 16:37I would say for the first time in decades.
16:39 --> 16:42OK, so. With so many different
16:42 --> 16:43approaches than being proposed
16:44 --> 16:46by state and local governments as
16:46 --> 16:49well as bills before Congress,
16:49 --> 16:51what do you wish people knew
16:51 --> 16:53about the legislation and reform
16:53 --> 16:54strategies they and their
16:54 --> 16:56representatives are voting on now?
16:56 --> 16:59Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot.
16:59 --> 17:02I mean, they're going to give is is
17:02 --> 17:04probably more of an ethos that isn't
17:04 --> 17:07anything about a particular policy.
17:07 --> 17:10I think it's important for people to.
17:10 --> 17:14I examine the likelihood or I guess
17:14 --> 17:17it's a examine the novelty of the
17:17 --> 17:20proposal and examine whether that
17:20 --> 17:24proposal is likely to make the police
17:24 --> 17:27more central in the daily lives of
17:27 --> 17:30marginalized communities or less central.
17:30 --> 17:33And let me say a little bit
17:33 --> 17:35about why that's important.
17:35 --> 17:38So I wish people knew that for
17:38 --> 17:42the past three decades at least.
17:42 --> 17:44Especially with the development
17:44 --> 17:47of the national cops program,
17:47 --> 17:51as an outgrowth of the Clinton
17:51 --> 17:53crime bill in 1994.
17:53 --> 17:56There's been this massive influx of police
17:56 --> 17:58officers to marginalized communities,
17:58 --> 18:01especially in urban areas and at the
18:01 --> 18:03same time there's been an expansion
18:03 --> 18:06of the substantive criminal law.
18:06 --> 18:08So what I mean by that is there
18:08 --> 18:11just more criminal laws and more
18:11 --> 18:13things that are criminalised?
18:13 --> 18:16And what that means is that you
18:16 --> 18:18have this situation where there are
18:18 --> 18:21more police and also more reasons
18:21 --> 18:24that the police can engage people.
18:24 --> 18:27And many of us come in a lot of
18:27 --> 18:29things that you and me might not
18:29 --> 18:32think or like that big of a deal.
18:32 --> 18:34The classic example that people give
18:34 --> 18:37here is the Eric Garner and the selling
18:37 --> 18:39loose cigarettes businesses like well,
18:39 --> 18:42did we actually need police on that one?
18:42 --> 18:46And in George Floyd's case,
18:46 --> 18:47right?
18:47 --> 18:50$20.00 Atanas it bill that would she may
18:50 --> 18:54or may not have known as counterfeit,
18:54 --> 18:54but um,
18:54 --> 18:58the store by law was required to call the
18:58 --> 19:01police to report the counterfeit bill,
19:01 --> 19:04regardless of whether they wanted to.
19:04 --> 19:07They were supposed to do that.
19:07 --> 19:09And and then this horrible
19:09 --> 19:10situation transpires.
19:10 --> 19:14So I think so that the overarching
19:14 --> 19:17lesson woman would learn from
19:17 --> 19:20a lot of these incidents is.
19:20 --> 19:22There are places where the police
19:22 --> 19:24are not needed that we that
19:24 --> 19:26we use them for every day.
19:27 --> 19:30These police are not equivalent and not
19:30 --> 19:34all they do is meaningful crime control,
19:34 --> 19:38and so whatever is being proposed has
19:38 --> 19:42to come from a place of limiting.
19:42 --> 19:44That sort of engagement and many,
19:44 --> 19:47and so there are lots of different poses
19:47 --> 19:51on the table and if we start looking locally,
19:51 --> 19:54I have seen a wide range of proposals,
19:54 --> 19:56things from in some suburbs, suburbs.
19:56 --> 19:58It never kind of got on
19:58 --> 20:00the body camera business.
20:00 --> 20:02You know there's some people saying,
20:02 --> 20:03Oh well,
20:03 --> 20:05we just need more body cameras that
20:05 --> 20:09I think is a type of proposal that
20:09 --> 20:11is not meaningful. Reform is not.
20:11 --> 20:13We've also seen many conversations,
20:13 --> 20:14of course,
20:14 --> 20:17about defunding the police and let that
20:17 --> 20:19actually tends to mean is removing
20:19 --> 20:21some of the funding from the police budget,
20:21 --> 20:23and theoretically at least placing it
20:23 --> 20:26other places where it would be valuable.
20:26 --> 20:28Now this tends to run into a lot
20:28 --> 20:30of problems because you know,
20:30 --> 20:32it's like they'll be active
20:32 --> 20:34as energy built up around
20:34 --> 20:36it, and there we politician saving saying
20:36 --> 20:40they want to do it even at a local level.
20:40 --> 20:42But then there are the kind of.
20:42 --> 20:45The horse trade or whatever they call
20:45 --> 20:47it happens, and I think we've seen this
20:47 --> 20:49actually in Minneapolis, which was,
20:49 --> 20:51you know, kind of where George Floyd deaths,
20:51 --> 20:53George boys deaths took place and
20:53 --> 20:56also was the first place to say, OK,
20:56 --> 20:58we're going to take this this place
20:58 --> 21:01out of school is going to get her
21:01 --> 21:03that contract and we're going to find.
21:03 --> 21:07Actually, what they've wound up doing is.
21:07 --> 21:10Not a whole lot, I mean there, um,
21:10 --> 21:12think they reduced funding slightly,
21:12 --> 21:14but it's really difficult to tell
21:14 --> 21:16whether there's going to be a
21:16 --> 21:18meaningful long term policy change.
21:18 --> 21:19Even in Minneapolis.
21:19 --> 21:23And so this is one thing I wish you
21:23 --> 21:25would pay a lot more attention to,
21:25 --> 21:27which is the difference between the
21:27 --> 21:30slogan an whatever is implemented,
21:30 --> 21:32and then finally I just want to say
21:32 --> 21:35something about the federal proposals.
21:35 --> 21:36Lots of federal proposals.
21:36 --> 21:38There are proposals to create a
21:38 --> 21:41national database so that really
21:41 --> 21:43horrible cops aren't as easily
21:43 --> 21:45able to move to other places.
21:45 --> 21:47and I guess I wouldn't say
21:47 --> 21:49that I'm opposed to that.
21:49 --> 21:51I mean, I think you know,
21:51 --> 21:54I think it's some is truly tragic.
21:54 --> 21:56Uh, how easy it is for police
21:56 --> 21:58officers to relocate.
21:58 --> 21:59I'm thinking now,
21:59 --> 22:01so there's an article that was
22:01 --> 22:04recently out in the Yale Law Journal.
22:04 --> 22:06Boppin Grunwald and John Rappaport.
22:06 --> 22:08Call the wandering officer that
22:08 --> 22:10actually empirically tracks some
22:10 --> 22:13of this movement of officers.
22:13 --> 22:15In different localities and.
22:15 --> 22:17You know, uhm,
22:17 --> 22:23I think it's important to make that less, uh,
22:23 --> 22:27possible that will not resolve these issues.
22:27 --> 22:30The ethos behind that,
22:30 --> 22:32um, reform is to say.
22:32 --> 22:35There are bad police officers out there
22:35 --> 22:39and we want to keep track of them so
22:39 --> 22:42they are no longer police officers.
22:42 --> 22:43I'm all for that,
22:43 --> 22:45but that doesn't take into account
22:45 --> 22:48the fact that there is something
22:48 --> 22:50deeply toxic about police culture
22:50 --> 22:52and how police culture teaches
22:52 --> 22:54officers to interact with black
22:54 --> 22:55communities in particular.
22:55 --> 22:57Also some Brown communities and
22:57 --> 22:59basically all poor communities.
22:59 --> 23:03And so essentially I'm going on for a while,
23:03 --> 23:03but.
23:03 --> 23:03I,
23:03 --> 23:06I guess there are a couple of
23:06 --> 23:08questions that I would encourage
23:08 --> 23:11people to to think about when
23:11 --> 23:13they hear about proposals and
23:13 --> 23:16whether they want to support them.
23:16 --> 23:19One is whether they're treating the
23:19 --> 23:21problems of policing as problems
23:21 --> 23:23of individual bad police officers
23:23 --> 23:25or problems of police culture,
23:25 --> 23:26police policy, etc.
23:26 --> 23:29The other and another thing is,
23:29 --> 23:31as I mentioned earlier,
23:31 --> 23:33whether this proposal is likely to.
23:33 --> 23:36Involve more police and people's lives,
23:36 --> 23:39or whether that propose it is likely
23:39 --> 23:42to reduce police and maybe up the
23:42 --> 23:44capacity of social service agencies,
23:44 --> 23:46community organizations, etc.
23:46 --> 23:48I guess those are two questions,
23:48 --> 23:51but there's a lot more to say
23:51 --> 23:53about that theoretically.
23:55 --> 23:59OK, so my next question was going to be.
23:59 --> 24:02What actions do you think are the
24:02 --> 24:04most effective than in the domain
24:04 --> 24:06of police reform and what avenues
24:06 --> 24:09of change do you wish were given
24:09 --> 24:11more attention by lawmakers or
24:11 --> 24:12just interested caring civilians?
24:12 --> 24:15But? Also I'm interested.
24:15 --> 24:18I guess more specifically in actions
24:18 --> 24:21related to police impunity as of late
24:21 --> 24:25one could example being the Brianna
24:25 --> 24:28Taylor case that because actions
24:28 --> 24:30were carried out under a warrants
24:30 --> 24:32that was signed and supposedly
24:32 --> 24:35well researched that the officers
24:35 --> 24:37that carried out that warrant,
24:37 --> 24:40even if they did so in a way
24:40 --> 24:42that is harshly criticized for
24:42 --> 24:46what I believe is good reason.
24:46 --> 24:48That those officers, therefore,
24:48 --> 24:51have almost complete impunity just by
24:51 --> 24:53the sheer existence of that warrants in
24:53 --> 24:55the first place, right? Right?
24:55 --> 24:58Yeah, so there is a real divide
24:58 --> 25:02between what is legal and what is just.
25:02 --> 25:04I think that's that's the, UM.
25:04 --> 25:09The that's one really overarching piece of,
25:09 --> 25:11uhm, this entire situation,
25:11 --> 25:14because right, so people who are
25:14 --> 25:18not lawyers who are not jaded see
25:18 --> 25:21what happened to Brianna Taylor.
25:21 --> 25:24They see what has happened so many
25:24 --> 25:27times when the officer is claim
25:27 --> 25:31that they felt threatened and they
25:31 --> 25:34avoid punishment in that way.
25:34 --> 25:36I. And so that.
25:36 --> 25:40That's like that's a general issue.
25:40 --> 25:43Hum, but then we also have certain
25:43 --> 25:45doctrines that keep police officers
25:45 --> 25:48from being held individually
25:48 --> 25:50accountable for wrongdoing.
25:50 --> 25:53The one people have been talking about
25:53 --> 25:56most recently as qualified immunity
25:56 --> 25:59stream court declined to revisit.
25:59 --> 26:00Qualified immunity.
26:00 --> 26:01Essentially,
26:01 --> 26:04will qualified immunity with that document.
26:04 --> 26:07So if you want to Sue the police
26:07 --> 26:10police officer for violating
26:10 --> 26:12your constitutional rights.
26:12 --> 26:17Um, there, generally speaking, uh,
26:17 --> 26:21the police officer is immunity's
26:21 --> 26:26immune from uh from that lawsuit,
26:26 --> 26:28in part because.
26:28 --> 26:31They have to be violating a
26:31 --> 26:33clearly established law.
26:33 --> 26:39And it is very difficult to to prove that.
26:39 --> 26:41Much of what police do violates
26:41 --> 26:43quote Unquote, clearly established,
26:43 --> 26:46so that's that's just one piece of it.
26:46 --> 26:49I'm not an expert on qualified
26:49 --> 26:50immunity in general,
26:50 --> 26:53but but that's one other thing that people
26:53 --> 26:57have been discussing in the more recently.
26:57 --> 26:57Seriously issue,
26:57 --> 27:01uhm well and then of course I should
27:01 --> 27:03mention that many times prosecutors
27:03 --> 27:06don't actually want to charge
27:06 --> 27:08police officers with wrongdoing.
27:08 --> 27:11So if we think about criminal
27:11 --> 27:14accountability and not civil accountability.
27:14 --> 27:14Uh.
27:14 --> 27:16There are lots of reasons
27:16 --> 27:18prosecutors wouldn't charge.
27:18 --> 27:19Police officers would be
27:19 --> 27:21less likely to do that,
27:21 --> 27:23and if you think about what happened
27:23 --> 27:25in the Michael Brown case in 2014,
27:25 --> 27:27is just one example of.
27:27 --> 27:33The grand jury didn't issue a didn't come.
27:33 --> 27:35Come up with the charges so
27:35 --> 27:36it didn't go through.
27:36 --> 27:39It didn't go through the grand jury,
27:39 --> 27:41and that's really interesting to not have,
27:41 --> 27:44so we have a grand jury that doesn't
27:44 --> 27:46indict because it's really rare
27:46 --> 27:48to have your grand jury not be
27:48 --> 27:51able to indict someone like this.
27:51 --> 27:55Like really, really rare, and so.
27:55 --> 27:57So moving on from it, so I think the.
28:00 --> 28:03There are many issues that keep, uh,
28:03 --> 28:05individual police officers from being
28:05 --> 28:07held accountable for their wrongdoing.
28:07 --> 28:10Police unions are also a
28:10 --> 28:11factor in this, right?
28:11 --> 28:14So like police union representatives.
28:14 --> 28:16Sometimes a stand up and advocate
28:16 --> 28:19for officers to keep them from
28:19 --> 28:22getting fired to keep them from
28:22 --> 28:25facing substantive reprimand for UM,
28:25 --> 28:27substantive kind of accountability and
28:27 --> 28:29consequences for their wrong delay.
28:29 --> 28:32So there are many many ways in which
28:32 --> 28:35the law is insufficient in which
28:35 --> 28:37institutions are insufficient in
28:37 --> 28:39creating individual accountability
28:39 --> 28:42for police officers as important.
28:42 --> 28:43Here's the other issue.
28:43 --> 28:47This gets to what I was saying earlier,
28:47 --> 28:50which is the individual accountability.
28:50 --> 28:52A suit like if you're really concerned
28:52 --> 28:53about individual accountability.
28:53 --> 28:55There can be 2 theories as to why
28:55 --> 28:58one is that you think the problems
28:58 --> 29:00of policing are the problems
29:00 --> 29:01of bad police officers,
29:01 --> 29:03so their quote bad apples that
29:03 --> 29:06just need to be rooted out.
29:06 --> 29:07They need to be sued.
29:07 --> 29:09They need to be incarcerated.
29:09 --> 29:10They need it.
29:10 --> 29:11Kind of accountability.
29:11 --> 29:13So that's one reason you
29:13 --> 29:14might worry about that.
29:14 --> 29:16Another reason that you might worry
29:16 --> 29:19about that is if you think that justice
29:19 --> 29:20comes to individual retribution.
29:20 --> 29:21I mean,
29:21 --> 29:24I'm not really here to pass judgement on.
29:24 --> 29:25You know,
29:25 --> 29:28if you're kind of retribution person.
29:28 --> 29:28So basically,
29:28 --> 29:30like holding that person,
29:30 --> 29:33that countable means that justice has
29:33 --> 29:37been done that that would be kind of
29:37 --> 29:39are attributive, should be justice.
29:39 --> 29:41Position and then.
29:41 --> 29:44Another reason is what you would call
29:44 --> 29:46him Colonel audit errance theory.
29:46 --> 29:50So this idea that if you hold these
29:50 --> 29:52people accountable for their wrongdoing,
29:52 --> 29:55other officers will see it and
29:55 --> 29:58learn and it will transform how
29:58 --> 30:00policing operates in that way.
30:00 --> 30:01But we know.
30:01 --> 30:04We have little reason to believe that
30:04 --> 30:06to to buy really believe in that
30:06 --> 30:09kind of general deterrence theory.
30:09 --> 30:11Uhm, is not clear that that happens.
30:11 --> 30:12Of course,
30:12 --> 30:15it's hard to prove it or disprove it,
30:15 --> 30:17but what I'm really interested
30:17 --> 30:18in is collective accountability.
30:18 --> 30:20I'm really interested in the
30:20 --> 30:23fact that on a day-to-day basis,
30:23 --> 30:24even if no one dies,
30:24 --> 30:27there is a lot of what I would call
30:27 --> 30:29police five months questioning
30:29 --> 30:31people assume whether they're allowed
30:31 --> 30:34to be in certain places or not.
30:34 --> 30:36Um mistreating people come in
30:36 --> 30:38all kinds of different ways.
30:38 --> 30:40You know, cursing people out,
30:40 --> 30:42you know there there are number
30:42 --> 30:45of like things that seem small.
30:45 --> 30:47If the if the concern your focus on
30:47 --> 30:51is a police killing but are actually,
30:51 --> 30:53you know in my research what people
30:53 --> 30:56talk the most about in terms of
30:56 --> 30:59feeling violated by the police are not,
30:59 --> 31:00you know.
31:00 --> 31:02Retelling George Ford story or not
31:02 --> 31:05retelling the story of Brianna Taylor.
31:05 --> 31:07Those are examples, of course,
31:07 --> 31:09and they mean a lot,
31:09 --> 31:12but the day-to-day experience is really,
31:12 --> 31:13really important as well,
31:13 --> 31:16and I want to see more accountability
31:16 --> 31:18for policing in that area.
31:19 --> 31:23OK. Thank you that those ideas of collective
31:23 --> 31:26accountability are very, very powerful.
31:26 --> 31:28I appreciate you sharing.
31:28 --> 31:30So another aspect of your
31:30 --> 31:32research which is he said,
31:32 --> 31:35is all intertwines and kind of comes
31:35 --> 31:37together in this area of policing.
31:37 --> 31:40But maybe can be looked at in
31:40 --> 31:43a more isolated way as well.
31:43 --> 31:44Race and class segregation.
31:44 --> 31:47It feels very relevant and academic research,
31:47 --> 31:51and often times when designing a clinical
31:51 --> 31:54trial or recruiting subjects for a study.
31:54 --> 31:56These forms of segregation can lead
31:56 --> 31:59to exclusion of people of color
31:59 --> 32:01and other marginalized groups,
32:01 --> 32:04or Conversely caused poor and primarily
32:04 --> 32:05minority communities surrounding
32:05 --> 32:07universities to be taken advantage of.
32:07 --> 32:10In what way is my peas clinical trialists
32:10 --> 32:13or University administrators seek to
32:13 --> 32:16minimize harm caused to these communities?
32:16 --> 32:17Yeah,
32:17 --> 32:19so this is a great great question.
32:19 --> 32:21I'm really important something
32:21 --> 32:23I think about a lot of someone
32:23 --> 32:25who doesn't do clinical trials.
32:26 --> 32:28You don't do that type of research,
32:28 --> 32:30but I do research in communities
32:30 --> 32:33and there are all kinds of
32:33 --> 32:35ways that the research process.
32:35 --> 32:38Bears heavily on um.
32:38 --> 32:40Marginalized neighborhoods.
32:40 --> 32:43Um, an marginalized people.
32:43 --> 32:48Um and so, but at the same time,
32:48 --> 32:50there needs to be inclusion of
32:50 --> 32:52marginalized people in research.
32:52 --> 32:55I mean, especially if you're thinking
32:55 --> 32:57about biological medical research,
32:57 --> 33:00there's this strange way in which.
33:00 --> 33:04Some research has left out
33:04 --> 33:07black people around people.
33:07 --> 33:10Is that mean that the medical
33:10 --> 33:12information is actually skewed so
33:12 --> 33:14so it's really important to include,
33:14 --> 33:17but it's important not to take advantage.
33:17 --> 33:20So there are many different ways.
33:20 --> 33:22I think researchers can be
33:22 --> 33:23more cognizant of this.
33:23 --> 33:25I'm in empower communities
33:25 --> 33:27more in engaging in research,
33:27 --> 33:30and I think the predominant one place
33:30 --> 33:33I would start I think it would be
33:33 --> 33:36easy for me to start is to think
33:36 --> 33:38about how the community can participate.
33:38 --> 33:41In an help guide,
33:41 --> 33:42the research.
33:42 --> 33:46So in the past I've done some
33:46 --> 33:48participatory action research and
33:48 --> 33:51how participatory research plays out
33:51 --> 33:55is really different in different.
33:55 --> 33:55Cases,
33:55 --> 33:58and I think social science is easier
33:58 --> 34:01to think of how it would work,
34:01 --> 34:04but there's no reason that researchers can't.
34:04 --> 34:06Engage in community meetings.
34:06 --> 34:09Get to be actually involved in the
34:09 --> 34:11communities where they doing research,
34:11 --> 34:13so not just a research purposes,
34:13 --> 34:16not just to pop in. Pop out.
34:16 --> 34:18I got my data and I'm leaving,
34:18 --> 34:20but a longer standing engagement.
34:20 --> 34:23I think that's critical and that should
34:23 --> 34:26be key before the research even starts,
34:26 --> 34:28and it should also continue after
34:28 --> 34:31the research is over so that there's
34:31 --> 34:33some real investment in buying.
34:33 --> 34:34There's also,
34:34 --> 34:35you know.
34:35 --> 34:38There are ways that we have this idea
34:38 --> 34:41that people who live in marginalized
34:41 --> 34:43communities don't have expertise in anything.
34:44 --> 34:45And I think,
34:45 --> 34:45uhm?
34:45 --> 34:48That is a part of the reason
34:48 --> 34:52why there's a lot we don't know
34:52 --> 34:54because our knowledge production
34:54 --> 34:59is tainted with ideas of kind of
34:59 --> 35:01traditional elitism and people who
35:01 --> 35:04do biological medical research
35:04 --> 35:06should have conversations with
35:06 --> 35:09people in communities about what
35:09 --> 35:12they're experiencing and get their
35:12 --> 35:14ideas about what it would be
35:14 --> 35:17important to understand what some
35:17 --> 35:19other alternative variables might.
35:19 --> 35:19Be.
35:19 --> 35:23Etc and recruiting in ways that
35:23 --> 35:28are responsible so there is a
35:28 --> 35:31really interesting report called.
35:31 --> 35:35It's called why am I always
35:35 --> 35:37being researched and.
35:37 --> 35:41The is the foundation Chicago.
35:41 --> 35:45I wanna call one of things like the
35:45 --> 35:47Chicago Foundation is not like that,
35:47 --> 35:49but as a foundation.
35:49 --> 35:51Chicago actually developed this.
35:51 --> 35:53This really lengthy guide for
35:53 --> 35:56organizations except for kind of like
35:56 --> 35:59funders to think about more systematically,
35:59 --> 36:01how they could be doing research
36:01 --> 36:03with communities that is more
36:03 --> 36:05attentive to their concerns.
36:05 --> 36:09And so I think I think that aspect
36:09 --> 36:11of things is really important.
36:11 --> 36:15And then finally,
36:15 --> 36:16um.
36:16 --> 36:18And this relates in my earlier
36:18 --> 36:20point about the research
36:20 --> 36:23being done in ways that are really engaged
36:23 --> 36:27with the community over a long term is uhm.
36:27 --> 36:30Like there you know we're in New Haven
36:30 --> 36:33and the communities that surround yell
36:33 --> 36:36University are often seriously under
36:36 --> 36:39resourced and actually found this in DC
36:39 --> 36:42where there there were some people who
36:42 --> 36:45were doing my research who who participate
36:45 --> 36:49in my research in my study were basically
36:49 --> 36:52like Oh you know, well like this,
36:52 --> 36:55these $25 are really going to help me.
36:55 --> 36:58And you know, and sometimes
36:58 --> 37:00biological medical research pays more.
37:00 --> 37:03We have to think about that
37:03 --> 37:05sort of incentive structure.
37:05 --> 37:07An interrogate that there's a
37:07 --> 37:09way in which research relies,
37:09 --> 37:12sometimes on people not having
37:12 --> 37:13alternative means of survival.
37:13 --> 37:16And that is not acceptable.
37:16 --> 37:18And people who engage in research
37:18 --> 37:21should also be advocating for
37:21 --> 37:23greater economic opportunity in the
37:23 --> 37:26communities where they are working.
37:26 --> 37:27And so that's that,
37:27 --> 37:30I think is another part of.
37:30 --> 37:32Doing research responsibly and ethically.
37:35 --> 37:38OK. I absolutely agree with that, I think.
37:38 --> 37:41I went to the University of
37:41 --> 37:43Rochester as an undergrad,
37:43 --> 37:45so very similar environment in
37:45 --> 37:48some ways to that around Yale,
37:48 --> 37:50and the University was the
37:50 --> 37:52largest employer in the region.
37:52 --> 37:55So not only were people.
37:55 --> 37:56You know participating in research
37:56 --> 37:59because that $25 or that $50.
37:59 --> 38:02When I was working on F MRI research
38:02 --> 38:04would benefit them in a major way,
38:04 --> 38:06which it would in many cases.
38:06 --> 38:08But also oftentimes these would be
38:08 --> 38:10people that would be working for
38:10 --> 38:12the University already where the
38:12 --> 38:14incentive structure is kind of built
38:14 --> 38:16in there being recruited there,
38:16 --> 38:17working with the University,
38:17 --> 38:20and yet we don't see you know these
38:20 --> 38:23people being able to choose not to
38:23 --> 38:25participate in these research studies.
38:25 --> 38:26These people.
38:26 --> 38:28Ending up being in better resource
38:28 --> 38:30communities for the University
38:30 --> 38:35is involvement. Yes. So. Um?
38:35 --> 38:43With everything going on right now,
38:43 --> 38:44being.
38:44 --> 38:46Protests that we're seeing the
38:46 --> 38:48cost for police reform.
38:48 --> 38:51We are still amid a pandemic,
38:51 --> 38:55which has come up in most of our
38:55 --> 38:57interviews recently for the podcast.
38:57 --> 39:00So how is the COVID-19 pandemic affected?
39:00 --> 39:01The current dialogue within
39:01 --> 39:04your areas of research or cause
39:04 --> 39:06you to maybe think differently
39:06 --> 39:08about some of these subjects?
39:09 --> 39:11Yeah, yeah, so um, in so many ways.
39:11 --> 39:14Uh, have been the large and small,
39:14 --> 39:16so um, one really small way.
39:16 --> 39:19Uhm, I guess it's a bit big for me,
39:19 --> 39:22but it's small as an entree into
39:22 --> 39:24this conversation is you know someone
39:24 --> 39:26who does qualitative field research.
39:26 --> 39:28I'm not going to be doing
39:28 --> 39:30qualitative field research for
39:30 --> 39:32awhile and and what that means is,
39:32 --> 39:35I mean that to some degree changes.
39:35 --> 39:38Who and how I can interview and who
39:38 --> 39:40and how I can observe I've been.
39:40 --> 39:43Doing some, uh, observational research
39:43 --> 39:46of some basically police community
39:46 --> 39:49organizations in Seattle recently,
39:49 --> 39:53and I've been with what is that meant
39:53 --> 39:57that isn't meant observing zoom meetings.
39:57 --> 40:00OK, you know this is really different,
40:00 --> 40:02but um, but there's so many
40:02 --> 40:04bigger ways than that, right?
40:04 --> 40:07So, um, I start from the conversation
40:07 --> 40:09by explaining that I I studied policing,
40:09 --> 40:12but I don't really see myself
40:12 --> 40:13primarily policing scholar.
40:13 --> 40:15I'm someone who comes from this
40:15 --> 40:17out of concern about race,
40:17 --> 40:18class and quality,
40:18 --> 40:22and one of the things I think we noticed
40:22 --> 40:24early in the COVID-19 pandemic as
40:24 --> 40:28it's been played it playing out in the US.
40:28 --> 40:35Is the serious racial disparity in COVID-19?
40:35 --> 40:37In terms of diagnosis,
40:37 --> 40:38but also death especially,
40:38 --> 40:40and there's something that
40:40 --> 40:41has affected me personally.
40:41 --> 40:43My father, who is my father,
40:43 --> 40:46passed away from covid early.
40:46 --> 40:50In the pandemic and so many
40:50 --> 40:52black people are no.
40:52 --> 40:58No people who have died from COVID-19 and.
40:58 --> 41:00I have long of course thought
41:00 --> 41:01about race class inequality,
41:01 --> 41:03but I have focused much less
41:03 --> 41:05on the health aspects of it,
41:05 --> 41:07which is why this is an interesting
41:07 --> 41:09podcast for me to be apart of.
41:09 --> 41:12Eye focused left less on the health parts,
41:12 --> 41:14in part because I don't know
41:14 --> 41:15what to think about them.
41:15 --> 41:16You know,
41:16 --> 41:18like it's like I think is some is
41:18 --> 41:20is much more complicated than,
41:20 --> 41:23uhm then is is easier for me to contemplate,
41:23 --> 41:25but so I'm thinking a lot about
41:25 --> 41:26health and flourishing,
41:26 --> 41:29which is kind of where the place is.
41:29 --> 41:32One of the places I was taking
41:32 --> 41:33the conversation.
41:33 --> 41:36You say I want to like it and in
41:36 --> 41:38terms of that conversation about
41:38 --> 41:41research and where it's all going,
41:41 --> 41:43the bigger interest is to imagine
41:43 --> 41:46black people not just as legally equal,
41:46 --> 41:48but as flourishing,
41:48 --> 41:51and that flourishing includes health and.
41:51 --> 41:53And so COVID-19 have certainly
41:53 --> 41:55changed our way of thinking about
41:55 --> 41:57this now in terms of policing and
41:57 --> 41:59more broadly criminal criminal
41:59 --> 42:01legal research,
42:01 --> 42:03focus on prisons and things like this.
42:03 --> 42:06So in the police conversation,
42:06 --> 42:08COVID-19 first I think played a
42:08 --> 42:11massive role in the fact that George
42:11 --> 42:13Floyd's death got so much attention.
42:13 --> 42:17I think that if we had not been in
42:17 --> 42:21so much self isolation at the time
42:21 --> 42:25that George Floyd Died and it was killed.
42:25 --> 42:28I don't think we will be having
42:28 --> 42:29this conversation in this way.
42:29 --> 42:30Hum two,
42:30 --> 42:32I've also the protest that emerged
42:32 --> 42:35and that have been ongoing are really
42:35 --> 42:38fascinating because not supposed to
42:38 --> 42:40be that close to each other.
42:40 --> 42:44You know, like and so one of the things
42:44 --> 42:49that stood out to me is also, you know.
42:49 --> 42:51It's like roughly being black right now,
42:51 --> 42:55uh, because, um, you know we're seeing this
42:55 --> 42:58reckoning with racism for the first time,
42:58 --> 43:01and I feel like I should be out on
43:01 --> 43:04the streets joining these protests.
43:04 --> 43:07But I also think that I am hyper
43:07 --> 43:09vulnerable to to death from
43:09 --> 43:12COVID-19 and there's a way in which.
43:12 --> 43:14I actually also think that
43:14 --> 43:15that has colored to.
43:15 --> 43:18That is, that is affected who
43:18 --> 43:20has been out protesting as well.
43:20 --> 43:22I think one of the reasons we've
43:22 --> 43:25seen white people joined the protest
43:25 --> 43:27is in part because it's like.
43:27 --> 43:30If you like serious about racial justice,
43:30 --> 43:33you don't want it to just be black
43:33 --> 43:35people protesting and putting their
43:35 --> 43:37lives on the line at this time,
43:37 --> 43:38because it's really,
43:38 --> 43:41and I guess the early early data is
43:41 --> 43:43suggesting that the protests are not
43:43 --> 43:46affecting COVID-19 up in the same way,
43:46 --> 43:48but in that it might be,
43:48 --> 43:50and in fact all this opening.
43:50 --> 43:52So anyway, I don't know,
43:52 --> 43:53so that's that's encouraging.
43:53 --> 43:55And then there are also there.
43:55 --> 43:58Also have been changes in how
43:58 --> 43:59police are functioning.
43:59 --> 44:02So this is like really granular but you know.
44:02 --> 44:04Please don't want to put people in
44:04 --> 44:07their cars in the age of COVID-19
44:07 --> 44:09please don't want to handle a
44:09 --> 44:11lot of people when it would.
44:11 --> 44:13It feels risky to them and of course
44:13 --> 44:15they have to their essential workers.
44:15 --> 44:17But there's a way in which they
44:17 --> 44:19are trying to limit their contact,
44:20 --> 44:22and I think that has provided some
44:22 --> 44:23interesting openings and interesting
44:23 --> 44:24conversations around how much
44:24 --> 44:27policing we actually need and whether
44:27 --> 44:28police could be less hands-on in
44:28 --> 44:30general and then the final thing
44:30 --> 44:32I want to mention is actually.
44:32 --> 44:36Where a lot of my kind of colleagues and
44:36 --> 44:39compatriots in the US scholarly world,
44:39 --> 44:42we're focusing early in the pandemic
44:42 --> 44:44will just bring people from prison.
44:44 --> 44:46You know,
44:46 --> 44:49COVID-19 really provided and has
44:49 --> 44:52provided an opening to have conversations
44:52 --> 44:56about how much people quote Unquote
44:56 --> 45:00need to be incarcerated, and.
45:00 --> 45:02And of course,
45:02 --> 45:04prisons are hotbeds for Covid.
45:04 --> 45:07And and I think there are ways in which
45:07 --> 45:10the arguments that have been constructed.
45:10 --> 45:13Now the legal arguments avenged,
45:13 --> 45:15constructing now for free people from
45:15 --> 45:18prison on the basis of the pandemic could
45:18 --> 45:20provide opening sobrato conversations
45:20 --> 45:23about the necessity of incarceration.
45:23 --> 45:26And so I think, uhm.
45:26 --> 45:27It you know,
45:27 --> 45:30in terms of the topics I study,
45:30 --> 45:33I think there's a discouragement with
45:33 --> 45:37respect to a lot of the racial equity.
45:37 --> 45:38Ways of thinking about health,
45:38 --> 45:41but there's alot been a lot of
45:41 --> 45:43excitement and encouragement on the
45:43 --> 45:45policing front and on the prison front.
45:47 --> 45:53OK. So there's a lot to unpack there,
45:53 --> 45:56and thank you again for sharing so much about
45:56 --> 45:59your work is related to current events.
45:59 --> 46:01So Lastly, are there other materials
46:01 --> 46:04that you suggest for our listeners who
46:04 --> 46:06want to know more and I'll make sure
46:06 --> 46:09that I link those that you've already
46:09 --> 46:10mentioned as well.
46:10 --> 46:13Missing the wandering officer article I mean,
46:13 --> 46:14there's so many things,
46:14 --> 46:17so I just published an article and
46:17 --> 46:20then why you are if you called anti
46:20 --> 46:22segregation policing that examines
46:22 --> 46:24how policing reproduces segregation,
46:24 --> 46:27but the the key conceit in that
46:27 --> 46:30article that might be of help
46:30 --> 46:32in this conversation is the the
46:32 --> 46:35routine aspects of police violence,
46:35 --> 46:38so I'm not as focused on please killings.
46:38 --> 46:40I'm focused on that.
46:40 --> 46:41Everyday routine please.
46:41 --> 46:45Brutality um an uh so also have another
46:45 --> 46:48article that was published in 2017 in
46:48 --> 46:51the yellow Journal called police reform
46:51 --> 46:55and the dismantling of legal estrangement,
46:55 --> 46:58and that article has a similar
46:58 --> 47:01focus in on both of these articles.
47:01 --> 47:04They pull from research in Dallas,
47:04 --> 47:06TX, Ann Cleveland, OH,
47:06 --> 47:10and in Baltimore, MD spent some time.
47:10 --> 47:13So there's also some other fascinating work
47:13 --> 47:16like so, um, as I mentioned right now,
47:16 --> 47:19a lot of scholarship is focusing on,
47:19 --> 47:22well, a lot of people in reform
47:22 --> 47:23communities are focusing on.
47:23 --> 47:25Abolition there,
47:25 --> 47:29they're having conversations about, uhm?
47:29 --> 47:30About how social movement
47:30 --> 47:32actors can be fighting.
47:32 --> 47:34A lot of the.
47:34 --> 47:36Essential tyranny of police.
47:36 --> 47:39And so there's some work I want to
47:39 --> 47:42suggest this helpful there so I'm
47:42 --> 47:45not Akbar has an article in the
47:45 --> 47:48NY you larvae 2018 called quarter
47:48 --> 47:50radical imagination of law that
47:50 --> 47:53essentially dissect the vision for
47:53 --> 47:55black lives documents and discusses
47:55 --> 47:58their relationship to LA and I think
47:58 --> 48:00could help illuminate some of that
48:00 --> 48:03conversation were having earlier about
48:03 --> 48:05the distinction between lawfulness.
48:05 --> 48:08And Justice in policing and how we can
48:08 --> 48:10think about how movements are focusing
48:10 --> 48:13on that and also understanding that
48:13 --> 48:16police reform is not in a vacuum and
48:16 --> 48:18that we have to reform a lot more
48:18 --> 48:22than policing in order to build justice.
48:22 --> 48:22Similarly,
48:22 --> 48:24look along along those lines.
48:24 --> 48:26Dorothy Roberts has a fascinating,
48:26 --> 48:28very long article in the Harvard Law
48:28 --> 48:31review called the abolition constitution.
48:31 --> 48:33Or I think it's not abolition
48:33 --> 48:36constitutionalism that just came out in 2019.
48:36 --> 48:38And it's essentially a kind of
48:38 --> 48:41frames out calls for abolition
48:41 --> 48:43in a much more complex way,
48:43 --> 48:46and they tend to be discussed
48:46 --> 48:48in kind of common discourse,
48:48 --> 48:52and I think I think that work is helpful.
48:52 --> 48:54I'm similarly along those lines,
48:54 --> 48:55things back,
48:55 --> 48:57critical resistance of the work
48:57 --> 48:59of Rachel Herzing,
48:59 --> 49:01who I think was one of the
49:01 --> 49:03founders of critical resistance.
49:03 --> 49:05So Rachel Herzing's articles um,
49:05 --> 49:08a kind of a shorter pieces that I think
49:08 --> 49:10also help frame out that conversation.
49:10 --> 49:13And finally I want to mention the
49:13 --> 49:14scholarship of Jocelyn Simonson,
49:14 --> 49:17who is nothing like professor who is written.
49:17 --> 49:19It has a piece that is forthcoming
49:19 --> 49:21in the yellow Journal called
49:21 --> 49:23police reform through a power lens,
49:23 --> 49:25and what type of argument that
49:25 --> 49:27makes relates to what I said people
49:27 --> 49:29should be looking for in reform,
49:29 --> 49:30which is,
49:30 --> 49:33I don't think I talked about this enough,
49:33 --> 49:36but this is kind of what I wanted to say.
49:36 --> 49:39Which is people should be looking
49:39 --> 49:41for interventions that was
49:41 --> 49:43shift power from police and technocrats
49:43 --> 49:47to figure everything out and yield to the
49:47 --> 49:49knowledge and expertise of communities
49:49 --> 49:52that have been heavily policed and Jocelyn
49:52 --> 49:55Simonson's work helps orientis around that.
49:55 --> 49:58Want to mention a couple of
49:58 --> 50:00other pieces by Jocelyn.
50:00 --> 50:04One is a great piece on community bail funds.
50:04 --> 50:08You know. We have one of those it really.
50:08 --> 50:10Active community bail fund here in
50:10 --> 50:11Connecticut, Connecticut. Bill Fund.
50:11 --> 50:14And so just as work on bail funds,
50:14 --> 50:16which is called Bayldon nullification,
50:16 --> 50:19is in the Michigan law review,
50:19 --> 50:21and that article discuss is fail funds,
50:21 --> 50:24what they do and how it fits into
50:24 --> 50:27broader visions of reforms of people
50:27 --> 50:29who hear about bill funds like,
50:29 --> 50:31Oh, you give you money,
50:31 --> 50:34and they built people out of jail,
50:34 --> 50:34great, whatever.
50:34 --> 50:37But actually what bill funds are doing
50:37 --> 50:40is is trying to transform the system.
50:40 --> 50:41But they're doing this one
50:41 --> 50:43incremental type of thing,
50:43 --> 50:45but they're also doing so much more
50:45 --> 50:47with the goal to try to destabilize
50:47 --> 50:50the entire of Rigamarole and daily and
50:50 --> 50:52Justice of the criminal legal system.
50:52 --> 50:54So I'm going to elevate that,
50:54 --> 50:56and then the final piece I want
50:56 --> 50:59to mention by Justin is a little
50:59 --> 51:01older and it's called cop watching,
51:01 --> 51:03but I think I think was cool about
51:03 --> 51:05the cop watching article,
51:05 --> 51:07which is in California law review.
51:07 --> 51:09I want to say 2016.
51:09 --> 51:11That could be wrong about that.
51:11 --> 51:15You're so the cop watching article
51:15 --> 51:19is great because it illuminates.
51:19 --> 51:21It's like it's about communities
51:21 --> 51:23organizing to record the police.
51:23 --> 51:26Kind of like on their phones
51:26 --> 51:28and things like This Is It?
51:28 --> 51:29It is so.
51:29 --> 51:32Instead of putting the video recording
51:32 --> 51:35in the hands of police body cameras
51:35 --> 51:38and having that be detailed as told,
51:38 --> 51:40we've seen how.
51:40 --> 51:42There a lot is left out, um,
51:42 --> 51:45from police body Cam footage to police off.
51:45 --> 51:47Please turn off their body cameras
51:47 --> 51:49you know they they turn off the sound
51:49 --> 51:51even if they keep the video going
51:51 --> 51:53and there's a lot of information
51:53 --> 51:55that can be missing in that way.
51:55 --> 51:58So so in the broader impulse of that cop,
51:58 --> 52:00watching article is to examine reforms
52:00 --> 52:02that can be quote Unquote agonism,
52:02 --> 52:04so that are not just trying to
52:04 --> 52:06cooperate with the police and try
52:06 --> 52:08to get them to behave better.
52:08 --> 52:10And the way that a lot of our
52:10 --> 52:11phone conversation plays out.
52:11 --> 52:14Does instead thinking about ways
52:14 --> 52:16that they can be productive?
52:16 --> 52:17Distant UN cooperational.
52:17 --> 52:18Lack of cooperation.
52:18 --> 52:21How that could lead to interesting
52:21 --> 52:22types of reforms.
52:22 --> 52:24But there's so much more I should
52:24 --> 52:26be listing here.
52:26 --> 52:28So much more and I could keep
52:28 --> 52:31you here all day with that so,
52:31 --> 52:33but I'm gonna, uh, much shipment,
52:33 --> 52:36should I think I'm going to stop?
52:36 --> 52:37This is their?
52:37 --> 52:39Uhm, I wanna well I'll mention
52:39 --> 52:41a couple other things.
52:41 --> 52:42So if you're interested in
52:42 --> 52:44like federal police reforms,
52:44 --> 52:45I think so.
52:45 --> 52:48The work of Sunita Patel at UCLA.
52:48 --> 52:51Says fascinating article in the
52:51 --> 52:54Wake Forest Law review about.
52:54 --> 52:56Federal intervention will
52:56 --> 52:57be called Section 14141.
52:57 --> 53:01A consent decrees that have happened in
53:01 --> 53:03several cities throughout the nation.
53:03 --> 53:05There less common and the Trump
53:05 --> 53:08Administration doesn't believe in them,
53:08 --> 53:10but there a way in which the
53:10 --> 53:13Department of Justice can gain control
53:13 --> 53:15over police department's that have
53:15 --> 53:18violated have a pattern or practice
53:18 --> 53:20of violating constitutional rights.
53:20 --> 53:22So sanitas work, Steven,
53:22 --> 53:25Russians work on that is great.
53:25 --> 53:28Rachel Harmon has some great work and then
53:28 --> 53:31finally I do want to mention also set
53:31 --> 53:33Stoughton who could be known on Twitter.
53:33 --> 53:35Think Police Lawprose Seth
53:35 --> 53:37has some great work sets.
53:37 --> 53:39Isn't a former police officer and had
53:39 --> 53:42some really fascinating work that deals
53:42 --> 53:44with the really grant granular aspects of
53:44 --> 53:47policing and then place them out in law.
53:47 --> 53:50So one of my favorite articles by Seth
53:50 --> 53:52is called moonlighting or this about
53:52 --> 53:55the way police officers work off duty.
53:55 --> 53:58Um and basically engage in a second shift,
53:58 --> 54:01and we've seen a lot of these incidents
54:01 --> 54:04that police being overworked.
54:04 --> 54:07So I'm thinking about Amber Geiger.
54:07 --> 54:12And the death of both of John in Dallas,
54:12 --> 54:16which is to just.
54:16 --> 54:16Tragic,
54:16 --> 54:19I mean all of these deaths are tragic,
54:19 --> 54:22but it just shocks me how every flare up.
54:22 --> 54:24We forget the names that came before.
54:24 --> 54:27And so I'm thinking about both of John.
54:27 --> 54:28And it's like,
54:28 --> 54:30you know he was sitting in his house,
54:30 --> 54:33an Amber Geiger is tired and it's been
54:33 --> 54:35working all these extra shifts and
54:35 --> 54:37thinks that he's in her apartment and
54:37 --> 54:40kills him while he's eating a bowl
54:40 --> 54:42full of ice cream and part of the
54:42 --> 54:44story there might be that her judgment
54:44 --> 54:46was impaired Cushman working so much.
54:46 --> 54:49And so there's a way in which a lot of
54:49 --> 54:53these readings would give you a way
54:53 --> 54:55more complicated picture of what's
54:55 --> 54:57needed to truly transform policing.
54:57 --> 54:59Maybe that means abolishing it.
54:59 --> 55:01Maybe it means reforming it.
55:01 --> 55:04Maybe there's a way to transform,
55:04 --> 55:07and neither just simply reform or abolish,
55:07 --> 55:09but we need more people with that
55:09 --> 55:12type of literacy about policing.
55:12 --> 55:14I think in order to create the
55:14 --> 55:16change we ultimately need.
55:17 --> 55:20OK, thank you for sharing so many resources.
55:20 --> 55:22I really appreciate it and I'll make
55:22 --> 55:25sure I attached the links to them for
55:25 --> 55:27our audience and thank you so much again
55:27 --> 55:29for taking the time to talk with Maine.
55:29 --> 55:31This has been absolutely wonderful.
55:32 --> 55:34Great is still not. It's been a pleasure
55:34 --> 55:36and a feel free to reach out anytime.
55:37 --> 55:39Will do OK. Have a
55:39 --> 55:41wonderful rest of your day?

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Although we typically cover topics that address the biomedical sciences, epidemiology, and healthcare practice, it is no secret that the systemic biases, residential segregation, violent responses to protesting, and further injustices that we see today all drive healthcare inequality and inform the topics and methods of research/practice for our audience. In light of the recent murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and Elijah McClain, among others, we’ve decided to use our platform as an avenue of communication for esteemed researchers in the fields of policing, Law, and criminal justice. In this episode, Wes interviews Dr. Monica Bell regarding race and class segregation, police reform and abolition, and minimizing harm to marginalized communities within clinical and behavioral research. Dr. Bell also shares resources, frameworks, and major questions that motivate her work and give context to recent legislation and proposals.

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