Robert Bazell

Transcript

00:08 --> 00:11Hello and welcome to Science et al podcast,
00:11 --> 00:12but everything science sponsored
00:12 --> 00:14by the Yale School of Medicine.
00:14 --> 00:16I'm your host, Daniel Barron.
00:16 --> 00:18And in this episode I'm
00:18 --> 00:20speaking with Robert Bazell.
00:20 --> 00:23Robert or Bob as he asked me to call him,
00:23 --> 00:25worked his NBC's chief science
00:25 --> 00:26correspondent for 38 years.
00:26 --> 00:28In that capacity, Bob and many awards,
00:28 --> 00:30including five Emmy Awards,
00:30 --> 00:32the Peabody Award, and the DuPont Award.
00:32 --> 00:34He also authored a bestselling
00:34 --> 00:35book called her two,
00:35 --> 00:37The Making of a revolutionary
00:37 --> 00:38treatment for breast Cancer,
00:38 --> 00:41which was adapted as a TV film.
00:41 --> 00:44Now Bob is supposedly formally retired,
00:44 --> 00:46even though he's quite busy at
00:46 --> 00:47yells Department of Molecular
00:47 --> 00:49Cellular and Developmental Biology,
00:49 --> 00:52where he spends his time mentoring
00:52 --> 00:53aspiring journalist scientists.
00:53 --> 00:56An anyone who wants to communicate
00:56 --> 00:57more effectively with the public,
00:57 --> 00:58including myself.
00:58 --> 01:00I ran into Bob's Science
01:00 --> 01:02journalism panel at Yale,
01:02 --> 01:05where he was one of the primary panelists.
01:05 --> 01:07I had never met him in person
01:07 --> 01:08and didn't recognize him,
01:08 --> 01:11but instantly recognized his voice.
01:11 --> 01:12And after the panel discussion,
01:12 --> 01:14I Googled Bob and reviewed
01:14 --> 01:16some of his videos,
01:16 --> 01:18some of which I still
01:18 --> 01:19remembered from decades before.
01:19 --> 01:21It was kind of strange to see him
01:21 --> 01:24with Bill Clinton and a lot of
01:24 --> 01:26the AIDS and cancer treatments
01:26 --> 01:28and the Human Genome Project.
01:28 --> 01:30It was really, it was really.
01:30 --> 01:32It was really fascinating.
01:32 --> 01:33Bob's had an enormous impact,
01:33 --> 01:36only that I and I suppose many of
01:36 --> 01:39listeners think about and appreciate science.
01:39 --> 01:42It was a real honor to speak with Bob
01:42 --> 01:45about his work and to see from his eyes at,
01:45 --> 01:46you know,
01:46 --> 01:48the 10,000 foot view how he views
01:48 --> 01:50science and how science meshes
01:50 --> 01:51with politics and public policy,
01:51 --> 01:53social movements and with the
01:53 --> 01:55scientific community itself.
01:55 --> 01:56So here we go.
01:56 --> 01:57Thanks again to
02:06 --> 02:09Well, thank you for coming and for
02:09 --> 02:12letting me pick your brain yet again.
02:12 --> 02:14It was really interesting so I
02:14 --> 02:17had not really met you formally,
02:17 --> 02:19but I first I could say heard your
02:19 --> 02:22voice from the back of a lecture
02:22 --> 02:24Hall during a panel discussion with
02:24 --> 02:27Carl Zimmer Anneliese Sanders,
02:27 --> 02:29an I recognized your voice.
02:29 --> 02:30Really quite quickly actually.
02:30 --> 02:33So I was like, oh, wow,
02:33 --> 02:36I know this guy and so after that I just
02:36 --> 02:40I did what I think by your definition
02:40 --> 02:43would be a not quite a deep dive but.
02:43 --> 02:45Dipping my toe in the finger
02:45 --> 02:48of your huge body of work.
02:48 --> 02:50And obviously you've reported on
02:50 --> 02:53far more than 4000 stories and I
02:53 --> 02:56was able to go on to NBC's website
02:56 --> 02:58and watch some of the videos that
02:58 --> 03:01you had made like some of the
03:01 --> 03:03reporting you did for the TV.
03:03 --> 03:04By
03:04 --> 03:07the way, if you want to see videos
03:07 --> 03:10from history, you can open the
03:10 --> 03:12Yale Library and Vanderbilt.
03:12 --> 03:14Library has an archive of every television
03:14 --> 03:17show that's been produced since 1968,
03:17 --> 03:20and you go live stream it. I had no idea,
03:20 --> 03:22so you can watch just everything.
03:22 --> 03:23You can watch everything.
03:23 --> 03:25Well, let's pick a moment in
03:25 --> 03:27history that's kind of scary.
03:27 --> 03:28Actually, there's
03:28 --> 03:30a lot of junk on television. There's a
03:30 --> 03:33lot of junk, but it also is for me.
03:33 --> 03:35It's been a very useful
03:35 --> 03:36tool for undergraduates,
03:36 --> 03:38because if I'm teaching a course on,
03:38 --> 03:40say, the history of HIV AIDS,
03:40 --> 03:42which I'm doing now, or.
03:42 --> 03:45Events in public health that I take it back,
03:45 --> 03:48take them back and show them these.
03:48 --> 03:50Videos 'cause I wouldn't have access to them.
03:50 --> 03:53NBC owns them, but I can show it,
03:53 --> 03:56show it to them and they are absolutely
03:56 --> 03:58fascinated to hear the inside story of.
03:58 --> 04:00How this happened and then to see
04:00 --> 04:02the people that they're not just
04:02 --> 04:04reading about it in an article or
04:04 --> 04:06at a Journal article or a popular
04:06 --> 04:08article, many of whom you interviewed?
04:08 --> 04:10Yeah, why didn't they see me interviewing
04:10 --> 04:12them and then I can tell them
04:12 --> 04:13what they're really like.
04:13 --> 04:15This person was a decent person.
04:15 --> 04:17This one is not one of the videos,
04:17 --> 04:20so there are 480 videos on the NBC website,
04:20 --> 04:22so this is 10 to what I did.
04:22 --> 04:24Sure right, but you know,
04:24 --> 04:26it's still a lot for me and
04:26 --> 04:28there's one video in particular.
04:28 --> 04:29It was from 1981.
04:29 --> 04:31Where you had this excellent white linen
04:31 --> 04:34sports coat and purple tie purple shirt,
04:34 --> 04:36your hairs gotta fro delivery.
04:36 --> 04:39Bring all that up.
04:39 --> 04:41Great, so great and you're interviewing
04:41 --> 04:43BF Skinner about some experiments
04:43 --> 04:45that he's doing with pigeons.
04:45 --> 04:46You know unpacking and, well,
04:46 --> 04:49you know the different files and stuff.
04:49 --> 04:53I had a great honor and for a long time on
04:53 --> 04:57the Today Show in the 80s where I they won't,
04:57 --> 04:59they took a science segment which is
04:59 --> 05:02very rare an I was allowed to pick and
05:02 --> 05:05anything I wanted to and I found out
05:05 --> 05:08that Skinner was still around, which was
05:08 --> 05:10surprising because it was so famous.
05:10 --> 05:13And he was a great interview.
05:13 --> 05:15It was a very wry sense of
05:15 --> 05:17humor and the funny character.
05:17 --> 05:20And he had this idea of everything.
05:20 --> 05:21Everything as I recently started
05:21 --> 05:23wearing hearing aids myself.
05:23 --> 05:24But in those days,
05:24 --> 05:26hearing aids were quite visible and he,
05:26 --> 05:28being the behaviorist that he was,
05:28 --> 05:31he told me that the effect of
05:31 --> 05:33hearing aid seems to be it made
05:33 --> 05:35people scream at him 'cause
05:35 --> 05:37they would see it here.
05:39 --> 05:39Operant conditioning.
05:39 --> 05:41He didn't think the hearing aids
05:41 --> 05:43were enhancing his hearing,
05:43 --> 05:45but he may make people screw you.
05:45 --> 05:47Wow that would have been
05:47 --> 05:48such a wonderful experience.
05:48 --> 05:49I've obviously never met Skinner,
05:49 --> 05:52but I've read a lot of his
05:52 --> 05:53work and seeing how it
05:53 --> 05:55influences and he had some
05:55 --> 05:57students that I followed up with
05:57 --> 05:59who made enormous fan of all.
05:59 --> 06:01Of other people, for instance,
06:01 --> 06:03people were trying to teach
06:03 --> 06:04a language to chimpanzees,
06:04 --> 06:06and they proved that they could
06:06 --> 06:08get pigeons to do exactly what
06:08 --> 06:10these people are getting the
06:10 --> 06:11chimpanzees to do.
06:11 --> 06:12Pressing the buttons,
06:12 --> 06:13community communicating
06:13 --> 06:14right exactly spelling out
06:14 --> 06:16words which really weren't really doing
06:16 --> 06:19well. There was such as a light going
06:19 --> 06:22through a lot of your work and I wanted
06:22 --> 06:24to kind of start farther back because
06:24 --> 06:27I find it absolutely fascinating.
06:27 --> 06:28So you did your undergraduate
06:28 --> 06:29work and Berkeley.
06:29 --> 06:35Seemingly at a time when there was like huge.
06:35 --> 06:36Protest political unrest.
06:36 --> 06:39You know the 60 seven was it when
06:39 --> 06:41you graduated, graduated in 67.
06:41 --> 06:44I started in the fall of 60 three and
06:44 --> 06:47the free Speech movement was in 64 and
06:47 --> 06:50Berkeley was way ahead of the rest of the
06:50 --> 06:52country in terms of being disruptive.
06:52 --> 06:55And I had my eye on my own back.
06:55 --> 06:58Story to that is that I had dropped
06:58 --> 07:00out of high school an I worked
07:00 --> 07:03as a merchant Seaman for awhile.
07:03 --> 07:05I'm traveling around the Pacific
07:05 --> 07:08so I got that. I got to Berkeley.
07:08 --> 07:10I got the equivalent of GD and
07:10 --> 07:11I went to Berkeley
07:11 --> 07:13and I'm sorry can we step back?
07:13 --> 07:15Can you help me understand
07:15 --> 07:17what a merchant Seaman is?
07:17 --> 07:19Oh I have this vision of EB
07:19 --> 07:20White working on a cruise
07:20 --> 07:22vessel going up to Alaska or
07:22 --> 07:24something was not that different.
07:24 --> 07:26I was in a cooks and stewards union
07:26 --> 07:28so that I wash dishes at sometimes
07:28 --> 07:31if I got a good job you would
07:31 --> 07:33bid on jobs at the Union Hall.
07:33 --> 07:36If I got a good job I would
07:36 --> 07:39be able to wait on tables or.
07:39 --> 07:42Sometimes I had to clean up rooms,
07:42 --> 07:44it was it was interesting mixture
07:44 --> 07:46of things and sometimes it worked
07:46 --> 07:48on freighters which were much
07:48 --> 07:50more less contact with the public.
07:50 --> 07:52But this was long enough ago that
07:52 --> 07:54there were American passenger ships,
07:54 --> 07:56so people were traveling to Hawaii
07:56 --> 07:59and Australia and Tahiti on ships was
07:59 --> 08:03quite an experience, so I was a bit.
08:03 --> 08:07In front of my classmates when I got there.
08:07 --> 08:09In terms of life experience and
08:09 --> 08:12so that made me right away.
08:12 --> 08:14Wine, wonder why these people are
08:14 --> 08:16wasting their time protesting?
08:16 --> 08:18Not that I disagree with the politics,
08:18 --> 08:20but in retrospect a lot of them
08:20 --> 08:22are very brave people who had gone
08:22 --> 08:24to the Mississippi freedom Summers
08:24 --> 08:27and put their lives on the line.
08:27 --> 08:29And but when they came back they wanted
08:29 --> 08:31to pick a fight with the University,
08:31 --> 08:32and in retrospect,
08:32 --> 08:36a lot of it was kind of silly at the
08:36 --> 08:38time was whether you put a table
08:38 --> 08:40here or 30 feet away from there
08:40 --> 08:42an to give out pamphlets so.
08:42 --> 08:45I had trouble at first getting used to it,
08:45 --> 08:48and I think that the politics of Berkeley.
08:48 --> 08:51Played a lot in my ending up
08:51 --> 08:53being a journalist because.
08:53 --> 08:56It was always very disruptive Ann.
08:56 --> 08:59It was hard to concentrate, I didn't.
08:59 --> 09:03I had was on track to be a scientist,
09:03 --> 09:06I an I went away for a year and worked
09:06 --> 09:09at the University of Sussex and then came
09:09 --> 09:12back which allowed me to stay in Berkeley.
09:12 --> 09:14Usually you have to do your
09:14 --> 09:16graduate work someplace else,
09:16 --> 09:18but keeping on the track to
09:18 --> 09:20do what I had to do,
09:20 --> 09:22I went to work in the laboratory
09:22 --> 09:24of a Nobel Prize winner and this
09:24 --> 09:27he was Melvin Calvin who discovered
09:27 --> 09:28the photosynthesis cycle which
09:28 --> 09:31is now known as the Calvin Cycle.
09:31 --> 09:34But of course it wasn't in those days.
09:34 --> 09:34Anne.
09:34 --> 09:38He had a huge labion 20 combination
09:38 --> 09:40of graduate students and postdocs.
09:40 --> 09:41Ann,
09:41 --> 09:44we decided in because that was the
09:44 --> 09:47way we did things in those days too.
09:47 --> 09:50Demand that he get off the Board of
09:50 --> 09:52Directors of Dow Chemical because
09:52 --> 09:53it made napalm.
09:53 --> 09:55An he said to us,
09:55 --> 09:59do go to hell just you're fired, he fired.
09:59 --> 10:01All of us just called his name
10:01 --> 10:03is student newspapers called the
10:03 --> 10:04Saturday Night Massacre.
10:04 --> 10:06So this is when you are Berkeley
10:06 --> 10:07hours Berkeley. So I was right.
10:07 --> 10:09This is what I was pushed.
10:09 --> 10:10Fast forwarding to undergraduate student.
10:10 --> 10:13K and I had finished by.
10:13 --> 10:15Or else for my PhD and I was about
10:15 --> 10:18to thinking about it thesis and at
10:18 --> 10:20that moment I happened just fortuitously
10:20 --> 10:23to meet somebody from Science magazine,
10:23 --> 10:25and that's how I got into journalism.
10:25 --> 10:27But if it hadn't met,
10:27 --> 10:28Melvin Calvin hadn't kicked me
10:28 --> 10:29out of his laboratory.
10:29 --> 10:32I might have been assigned to this day.
10:32 --> 10:34Oh wow, so that's that's
10:34 --> 10:34absolutely fascinating.
10:34 --> 10:36So so during your undergraduate years,
10:36 --> 10:39you were you were writing, and I didn't
10:39 --> 10:41write so much under my eyes.
10:41 --> 10:42In my undergraduate years,
10:42 --> 10:45I started that more as when I
10:45 --> 10:47came back as a graduate student.
10:47 --> 10:49And wrote a column for the
10:49 --> 10:51Daily Californian's newspaper,
10:51 --> 10:53but then they would buy.
10:53 --> 10:56This is now in 1970 and.
10:56 --> 10:58Long before can skate and
10:58 --> 11:00a lot of other things,
11:00 --> 11:01there was actually shootings
11:01 --> 11:02in tear gas constantly.
11:02 --> 11:03At Berkeley.
11:03 --> 11:04It was a very,
11:04 --> 11:05very disruptive from from
11:05 --> 11:072 control of the protests.
11:07 --> 11:09Or, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
11:09 --> 11:10This is a part of history
11:10 --> 11:12that I don't know very well,
11:12 --> 11:14so this is absolutely fascinating for
11:14 --> 11:17me. Yeah, I wanted we could go off on that,
11:17 --> 11:19but it's yeah, it was.
11:19 --> 11:21There were so good science and good
11:21 --> 11:23teaching and smart people there.
11:23 --> 11:25Obviously it's a world class
11:25 --> 11:27University and but I think that.
11:27 --> 11:29In retrospect, the politics were
11:29 --> 11:32so dominant that I got less out
11:32 --> 11:34of the experience of being there
11:34 --> 11:36that I could have if it were,
11:36 --> 11:37say, yeah, or
11:37 --> 11:40someplace else. What was it like
11:40 --> 11:42working at a scientific lab?
11:42 --> 11:43You know, a science lab.
11:43 --> 11:46During a moment when there was a
11:46 --> 11:48heavy anti science sentiment in
11:48 --> 11:50your generation. I don't remember that my
11:50 --> 11:53generation had anti science sentiment.
11:53 --> 11:54The environmental movement was
11:54 --> 11:57just beginning and I I had never.
11:57 --> 12:00Seen as anti science and you talk
12:00 --> 12:03about anti science now in terms of the
12:03 --> 12:05regulations that the Trump administration
12:05 --> 12:08is trying to illuminate. But I don't.
12:08 --> 12:12I don't ever recall feeling and I any
12:12 --> 12:15anti science sentiment and I don't.
12:15 --> 12:17And Pew surveys now and things
12:17 --> 12:19got along for a long time.
12:19 --> 12:22In science, it held it enormous respect.
12:22 --> 12:23Still an
12:23 --> 12:25was then I guess I associate the
12:25 --> 12:27protests against the war and
12:27 --> 12:29against experimentation. Things like
12:29 --> 12:30that. Yeah, well,
12:30 --> 12:33the report is against the war for sure,
12:33 --> 12:35and I felt very strongly and myself,
12:35 --> 12:38and that it was an awful situation.
12:38 --> 12:40But it wasn't about science except in
12:40 --> 12:43very specific ways like making weapons.
12:43 --> 12:44But the scientific community
12:44 --> 12:45was growing enormously.
12:45 --> 12:49In those days and one of the first stories
12:49 --> 12:52I covered when I got to Science magazine
12:52 --> 12:56was the war on cancer that Richard Nixon was.
12:56 --> 12:57Forced to sign. He wasn't.
12:57 --> 13:00Nobody put a gun to his head,
13:00 --> 13:02but he was politically
13:02 --> 13:04very wealthy lobbyists.
13:04 --> 13:07Who spend all our time on health matters,
13:07 --> 13:08name Mary Lasker.
13:08 --> 13:10Put together this coalition of Democrats
13:10 --> 13:13and Republicans and and they didn't want
13:13 --> 13:15to hear about basic science they wanted.
13:15 --> 13:18Why isn't there a cure for cancer and used
13:18 --> 13:22and became known as the War on cancer even
13:22 --> 13:25though it wasn't officially called that?
13:25 --> 13:27But of course whenever you declare war
13:27 --> 13:29on something that people start asking.
13:29 --> 13:32Or are we winning the war?
13:32 --> 13:34And that question goes on today?
13:34 --> 13:35Because the.
13:35 --> 13:36Numbers of.
13:36 --> 13:39Cancer deaths in the United
13:39 --> 13:42States especially are.
13:42 --> 13:44Despite all the miraculous sounding
13:44 --> 13:46things we hear about immunotherapy's
13:46 --> 13:48another and targeted therapies,
13:48 --> 13:50other treatments is vastly driven
13:50 --> 13:53by the amount of people smoke or
13:53 --> 13:56how many people are obese and
13:56 --> 13:58things environmental factors that
13:58 --> 14:01have nothing to do with treatment.
14:02 --> 14:06So. The decision for you did go
14:06 --> 14:08to Science magazine and become a
14:08 --> 14:10full time writer. Yeah, I was. I
14:10 --> 14:13was on the staff was very early announced.
14:13 --> 14:16Now it's a giant and very.
14:16 --> 14:17Very very good section
14:17 --> 14:19of of Science magazine.
14:19 --> 14:21But in those days just a few of us,
14:21 --> 14:23I think I was a third
14:23 --> 14:26higher reported on some of the biggest
14:26 --> 14:28science stories that have happened in
14:28 --> 14:30the last for more than my lifetime.
14:30 --> 14:32At least the last 30 four
14:32 --> 14:33years already I was.
14:33 --> 14:36I was at NBC for 38 years
14:36 --> 14:38an the I came there in nine.
14:38 --> 14:42I went to local news for six months in.
14:42 --> 14:451976, and then they sent me
14:45 --> 14:47to Washington for a year.
14:47 --> 14:49But I was always tagged to be the
14:49 --> 14:51science and medicine correspondent.
14:51 --> 14:53Was that on account of
14:53 --> 14:55your science, training or
14:55 --> 14:57person? Because of my size training,
14:57 --> 14:59they in the mid 70s there were
14:59 --> 15:00still only three networks,
15:00 --> 15:03which of course makes an enormous difference.
15:03 --> 15:05If you want to talk about televisions,
15:05 --> 15:08nothing like the media environment of today.
15:08 --> 15:10An enormous percentage of American
15:10 --> 15:12public sat down at 6:30 or 7:00
15:12 --> 15:14o'clock and watch the Evening
15:14 --> 15:16News on one of the three networks.
15:16 --> 15:19And that's why my voice was familiar to you.
15:19 --> 15:20Because you.
15:20 --> 15:23You heard it when you were growing up,
15:23 --> 15:24along with almost everybody was
15:24 --> 15:26on television and I remember a
15:26 --> 15:28colleague when I got the NBC
15:28 --> 15:29very beginning in my career.
15:29 --> 15:31He said you have to realize there
15:31 --> 15:34were fewer of us and he meant network
15:34 --> 15:35television correspondents for the
15:35 --> 15:37major news organizations here.
15:37 --> 15:38There's fewer of us than there
15:38 --> 15:40are members of the US Senate.
15:41 --> 15:44I never thought of that. Yeah, that's
15:44 --> 15:46fair, yeah, and he was so
15:46 --> 15:48we had a position and uh,
15:48 --> 15:50of authority and responsibility and I
15:50 --> 15:52hope we carried out the responsibility,
15:52 --> 15:54but it was nothing. And, you know,
15:54 --> 15:56get recognized on the street.
15:56 --> 15:58Then you know people like you reckon.
15:58 --> 16:00Remember, my voice is for
16:00 --> 16:01very heartening experience,
16:01 --> 16:03so I had a touch of celebrity
16:03 --> 16:05without any of the burdens of it.
16:05 --> 16:06I was never.
16:06 --> 16:09That's pretty ideal I guess. Yeah, right,
16:09 --> 16:10because it was. It's
16:10 --> 16:11interesting. Because the.
16:14 --> 16:16I almost never had anybody complained
16:16 --> 16:18to me about stories when they recognize
16:18 --> 16:20me and I would get recognized a lot.
16:20 --> 16:22And usually people wouldn't bother
16:22 --> 16:24me with them when they did,
16:24 --> 16:25it was just complementary.
16:25 --> 16:27They say they enjoyed this story
16:27 --> 16:29about this or that I remember.
16:29 --> 16:30Speaking to Michael Kinsley,
16:30 --> 16:32who was an editor at the
16:32 --> 16:33time at the New Republic,
16:33 --> 16:35where I occasionally wrote articles,
16:35 --> 16:37and he was on Crossfire with Pat Buchanan,
16:37 --> 16:40and he said, everybody came up to him,
16:40 --> 16:42and they wanted to finish the argument.
16:42 --> 16:43So if you're on,
16:43 --> 16:45and that would be just the beginning
16:45 --> 16:47of that kind of television where
16:47 --> 16:48people scream at each other,
16:48 --> 16:50we didn't do that, we told,
16:50 --> 16:51told a story,
16:51 --> 16:53and a certain amount of time.
16:53 --> 16:53So it
16:53 --> 16:55occur to me that you know,
16:55 --> 16:57and I'm sure this is delivered on
16:57 --> 17:00account of your the medium, that you're.
17:00 --> 17:03Reporting on, but your story is.
17:03 --> 17:04Almost invariably presented a
17:04 --> 17:06scientific topic like some science
17:06 --> 17:08concept very clearly very simply,
17:08 --> 17:11but they also had a almost a case study,
17:11 --> 17:12like a person involved,
17:12 --> 17:14and so it's like you're
17:14 --> 17:16presenting the concept and then
17:16 --> 17:18the application of the concept.
17:18 --> 17:19In the real world,
17:19 --> 17:21an was at a common formula.
17:21 --> 17:24Yeah, it was a very standard form,
17:24 --> 17:24formulaic thing,
17:24 --> 17:26and sometimes occasion there
17:26 --> 17:28would be the occasional scandal.
17:28 --> 17:30Or is the thing that things that
17:30 --> 17:32didn't workout as as you plan,
17:32 --> 17:35but for the most part.
17:35 --> 17:36If you're telling a story
17:36 --> 17:37about a medical advance,
17:37 --> 17:40you have to have a human being in it,
17:40 --> 17:42and I think that sometimes you
17:42 --> 17:43can convey the wrong impression
17:43 --> 17:46because you want to have the more
17:46 --> 17:47attractive human being in it.
17:47 --> 17:48And like, for instance,
17:48 --> 17:50if you're doing a story about cancer
17:50 --> 17:52that that was one of the questions
17:52 --> 17:55I always ask my students is what's
17:55 --> 17:56the biggest risk factor for cancer.
17:56 --> 17:57And of course,
17:57 --> 17:59people say chemicals or cigarettes
17:59 --> 18:00is the most common answer,
18:00 --> 18:03but of course it's age.
18:03 --> 18:04Only one
18:04 --> 18:06one out of eight women will
18:06 --> 18:08develop breast cancer. Yeah,
18:08 --> 18:10but most of them will develop in
18:10 --> 18:12their 60s and 70s and then add
18:12 --> 18:14it as since that's my cohort,
18:15 --> 18:18I'm not eager for it to happen, but I'm just.
18:18 --> 18:20But there are about 12,000 cases of
18:20 --> 18:22pediatric cancer in the United States.
18:22 --> 18:24Deaths from pediatric cancer in
18:24 --> 18:26the United States every year,
18:26 --> 18:28which each one is a horrible tragedy.
18:28 --> 18:31But there's 600,000 deaths from adult cancer,
18:31 --> 18:34so you have to look at that.
18:34 --> 18:35As a proportion of
18:35 --> 18:38the so you you knew you know the
18:38 --> 18:41fundamentals of the field and immunology,
18:41 --> 18:44and then you found yourself in the 80s
18:44 --> 18:47and 90s reporting on the AIDS crisis.
18:47 --> 18:50So how what was that like and how did
18:50 --> 18:54you interact with the communities on the
18:54 --> 18:57cyantific and the policy and the well?
18:57 --> 19:01I was one of the first people there and
19:01 --> 19:03that was so is very
19:03 --> 19:05welcomed because they were.
19:05 --> 19:07Languishing in lack of adversity
19:07 --> 19:10and the lack of publicity was
19:10 --> 19:12at the beginning was not just
19:12 --> 19:14because of the Ronald Reagan,
19:14 --> 19:16famously not saying the
19:16 --> 19:17word aids for many years,
19:17 --> 19:19and the government not being
19:19 --> 19:21interested in disease.
19:21 --> 19:23It very quickly was seem to
19:23 --> 19:24be just affecting stigmatized
19:24 --> 19:26groups and then poor countries,
19:26 --> 19:28mostly in Sub Saharan Africa.
19:28 --> 19:31But throughout the world there was
19:31 --> 19:34also a lot of resistance in the gay
19:34 --> 19:36community to talking about it at
19:36 --> 19:39first because they didn't want it.
19:39 --> 19:42They thought it would bring on more stigma,
19:42 --> 19:45but it only been since the stone
19:45 --> 19:49Stonewall riots in 1969 that there had
19:49 --> 19:52been a gay liberation movement an in.
19:52 --> 19:5319 was very recently I have
19:53 --> 19:55to look this up with Lawrence
19:55 --> 19:57versus Texas was in the 1980s,
19:57 --> 20:00which is a Supreme Court case that said that.
20:00 --> 20:01Anti sodomy laws were unconstitutional.
20:01 --> 20:02I think was
20:02 --> 20:04more recent than that. Yeah is
20:04 --> 20:05very very recent.
20:05 --> 20:09Yeah so a lot of you know a lot of
20:09 --> 20:11states homosexuality was illegal right?
20:11 --> 20:13And so they didn't want people
20:13 --> 20:15coming in and asking them about it.
20:15 --> 20:17So it was. It was, uh,
20:17 --> 20:20I mean I quickly made friends
20:20 --> 20:22and Anne was able to.
20:22 --> 20:25Do and I mean my my greatest regret
20:25 --> 20:27is I didn't do more about HIV aids
20:27 --> 20:30even though I got a lot of credit
20:30 --> 20:32for what I did do because I also
20:32 --> 20:33at the same time was covering the
20:33 --> 20:35space Shuttle artificial hearts.
20:37 --> 20:39Rollins of Cancer and you know there was
20:39 --> 20:41there was constantly constant stories
20:41 --> 20:43and you just mentioned BF Skinner,
20:43 --> 20:44which I'd completely forgotten about.
20:44 --> 20:46Yeah, that was also during the
20:46 --> 20:48day when he was just starting
20:48 --> 20:49up. He was just just the breath
20:49 --> 20:51of the stories that you covered.
20:51 --> 20:53Like all of the big topics,
20:53 --> 20:54all the big topics.
20:54 --> 20:57You were there, right?
20:57 --> 20:59I was enormously blessed by that
20:59 --> 21:01because of that I've had this huge
21:01 --> 21:04amount of you to wake up in the
21:04 --> 21:05morning and always do something
21:05 --> 21:08that you can think is interesting.
21:08 --> 21:09For the most part.
21:09 --> 21:10Obviously it doesn't always
21:10 --> 21:12work out well, so how does
21:12 --> 21:14that work practically for
21:14 --> 21:16you? Well, a lot of those.
21:16 --> 21:18A lot of the reporting was based on
21:18 --> 21:20what was coming out in the journals.
21:21 --> 21:23Is journals probably too large in extent
21:23 --> 21:25and I think see now the major publications
21:25 --> 21:28are backing off from just covering.
21:28 --> 21:32You know what's new in Journal or JAMA or.
21:32 --> 21:35Science or nature disk.
21:35 --> 21:37The size is important.
21:37 --> 21:43The but will you know if people know this?
21:43 --> 21:45Press releases are given up in an
21:45 --> 21:47embargoed fashion a few days in advance
21:47 --> 21:49so that scientists can excuse me so
21:49 --> 21:51the reporters can get a chance to get
21:51 --> 21:54up to speed on the story before they
21:54 --> 21:56have to write it or broadcast it.
21:56 --> 21:57But that also has the effect
21:57 --> 21:59of at 2:00 PM on Thursday.
21:59 --> 22:01If a story, say in science,
22:01 --> 22:03it'll come out on every broadcast
22:03 --> 22:04and print medium,
22:04 --> 22:07and as a result it looks like it's news.
22:07 --> 22:09But of course anybody in the field
22:09 --> 22:11will have heard about this is a
22:11 --> 22:12conference and talking like sponsor,
22:12 --> 22:13yeah, but
22:13 --> 22:15it's been going on for a long
22:15 --> 22:17time, but this is when it
22:17 --> 22:18becomes official. News.
22:19 --> 22:22So how do you? How do you manage that?
22:22 --> 22:26So I just want to return to the AIDS crisis.
22:26 --> 22:28So, so here you're you're reading
22:28 --> 22:30reports of the death toll rising,
22:30 --> 22:33or maybe giving those reports yourself,
22:33 --> 22:37sure, and how? How do you know?
22:37 --> 22:38Where to go after that?
22:38 --> 22:40Like how do you find?
22:40 --> 22:42How do you find groups to speak with?
22:42 --> 22:45How do you select what scientists to go and
22:45 --> 22:46speak with? Well, it was.
22:46 --> 22:49It was pretty obvious that there were
22:49 --> 22:52there weren't that many scientists in the.
22:52 --> 22:54In the field, who really cared about
22:54 --> 22:57it so he wasn't hard or doctors
22:57 --> 23:00under the one of you in the building
23:00 --> 23:03where we're doing this podcast?
23:03 --> 23:06As I just saw Jerry Friedlander,
23:06 --> 23:08who is a hero of HIV, AIDS,
23:08 --> 23:12and I started interviewing him in the 1980s.
23:12 --> 23:14He was in the Bronx when there
23:14 --> 23:16was this horrible epidemic among
23:16 --> 23:19Ivy drug users and their spouses,
23:19 --> 23:22an children, an he since done
23:22 --> 23:24marvelous work in South Africa with.
23:24 --> 23:26HIV, AIDS and tuberculosis,
23:26 --> 23:27and he continues.
23:27 --> 23:29I mean, she's here today.
23:29 --> 23:31Usually he's in South Africa,
23:31 --> 23:33so he was here and they're like, yeah,
23:33 --> 23:37they just signed who just saw a
23:37 --> 23:41few minutes ago? Turnovers. Yeah,
23:41 --> 23:45so you're going all over the US all over
23:45 --> 23:46the world warning world.
23:46 --> 23:48Yeah, I was sure I would.
23:48 --> 23:51NBC was very good about that.
23:51 --> 23:53Sending me to Africa and going at the
23:53 --> 23:56beginning going to Haiti 1st and then
23:56 --> 23:58Africa was very tough because they
23:58 --> 24:01everybody didn't want to be blamed
24:01 --> 24:03for this disease and they it was.
24:03 --> 24:05It was highly stigmatized as well.
24:05 --> 24:08What do you mean like the
24:08 --> 24:09government or anything?
24:09 --> 24:10The government certainly ANAN,
24:10 --> 24:14but finally it would. In our first.
24:14 --> 24:17What when I first went to Haiti?
24:17 --> 24:22Which you know this thing came up where.
24:22 --> 24:24Doctors were seeing people mostly in
24:24 --> 24:28New York and in Miami, who were Haitians?
24:28 --> 24:29What originally was?
24:29 --> 24:34It was gaming and drug users an.
24:34 --> 24:35And there was no,
24:35 --> 24:37they didn't have any risk factors.
24:37 --> 24:39Nobody knew that there was a massive
24:39 --> 24:41epidemic going in Haiti at the time,
24:41 --> 24:43but I went to Haiti and was
24:43 --> 24:45followed around by the secret
24:45 --> 24:47police and nobody would talk to me.
24:47 --> 24:49But of course I could talk to
24:49 --> 24:51Haitian doctors in the United States.
24:51 --> 24:53But there was enormous discrimination
24:53 --> 24:54against station.
24:54 --> 24:55So I did a piece in 1983 where
24:55 --> 24:57we had Haitian saying that they
24:57 --> 24:59were fired just because they were
25:00 --> 25:01Haitians and families were afraid
25:01 --> 25:04that they would get AIDS from.
25:04 --> 25:06They were fired in the US because reasons.
25:08 --> 25:10Well, so that's an aspect of
25:10 --> 25:12medicine that we're only starting
25:12 --> 25:14as physicians to talk about.
25:14 --> 25:17You know, the stigma and the social factors.
25:17 --> 25:19Like in psychiatry we have this
25:19 --> 25:21biopsychosocial model where for
25:21 --> 25:23every patient we have to try to
25:23 --> 25:25consider the social situation.
25:25 --> 25:28And so you were reporting on a lot of this
25:28 --> 25:31in from a medical perspective, right?
25:31 --> 25:33'cause this is what it was,
25:33 --> 25:36a medical, introspective and one of
25:36 --> 25:39the things I went to San Francisco
25:39 --> 25:42a lot to do the reporting an.
25:42 --> 25:44And I wasn't the only Reporter who
25:44 --> 25:47did that for the domestic reporting
25:47 --> 25:49on the emerging azik epidemic.
25:49 --> 25:51And the reason was San Francisco
25:51 --> 25:54had a large gay community of young
25:54 --> 25:56men who had recently come out,
25:56 --> 25:58and they were very politically powerful.
25:58 --> 26:01There was, they had 70,000 registered
26:01 --> 26:03voters in a city of 600,000,
26:03 --> 26:06so they were a considerable political force.
26:06 --> 26:07And as a result,
26:07 --> 26:09they weren't as afraid an to
26:10 --> 26:11be open and talk.
26:11 --> 26:13And then San Francisco General
26:13 --> 26:15opened its dedicated AIDS units,
26:15 --> 26:18the inpatient and outpatient in 1983.
26:18 --> 26:21And so we go even go in there.
26:21 --> 26:25If I there were big institutions in New York,
26:25 --> 26:28want some of which refused to
26:28 --> 26:30treat people with HIV AIDS,
26:30 --> 26:33which then you can argue about all the
26:33 --> 26:36ethics of that others like Bellevue,
26:36 --> 26:40which were just completely overrun the.
26:40 --> 26:42People who did their residencies,
26:42 --> 26:44especially in internal medicine,
26:44 --> 26:47but it almost anything and in the
26:47 --> 26:4980s through the discovery of the good
26:49 --> 26:52drugs in the mid 90s at Bellevue,
26:52 --> 26:54which is a great residency,
26:54 --> 26:56much sought after.
26:56 --> 26:58So almost nothing but AIDS,
26:58 --> 27:00so they were doing things like treating
27:00 --> 27:02these rare opportunistic infections
27:02 --> 27:04which in most situations you would
27:04 --> 27:06never see an American medical practice.
27:06 --> 27:08And as a whole they treated well.
27:08 --> 27:11How did I let me finish on something?
27:11 --> 27:14So a lot of these hospitals and I would
27:14 --> 27:17not let camera crews in because they
27:17 --> 27:20did not want the ones that did treat it.
27:20 --> 27:21People with aids?
27:21 --> 27:21They didn't.
27:21 --> 27:24They wouldn't let you in there because
27:24 --> 27:26they didn't want their other patients
27:26 --> 27:28to know that they were raised.
27:28 --> 27:30And in the war, oh.
27:30 --> 27:31So they didn't.
27:31 --> 27:34We couldn't take a TV crew in
27:34 --> 27:35just most hospitals.
27:36 --> 27:37So you couldn't show people
27:37 --> 27:38with the situation was
27:38 --> 27:40like yeah, but you couldn't.
27:40 --> 27:42San Francisco and I did sometimes
27:42 --> 27:44in New York we there were certain
27:44 --> 27:46places like Albert Einstein was much
27:46 --> 27:48more open about it than other places,
27:48 --> 27:49but most most places would not
27:49 --> 27:51let it TV anywhere near or
27:51 --> 27:53whether people talk about it.
27:53 --> 27:54Talk about it.
27:54 --> 27:56I mean they would show up at conferences
27:56 --> 27:58and you could interview them there,
27:58 --> 28:00but not in the context of their hospital.
28:01 --> 28:04So I when I rotated through an
28:04 --> 28:06infectious disease, units just as
28:06 --> 28:08part of my medical internship,
28:08 --> 28:11some of my attendings were either Chinese
28:11 --> 28:14or already attendings during that period
28:14 --> 28:17and asking them questions about this crisis.
28:17 --> 28:20And you know how the public dealt with it,
28:20 --> 28:23how the government of the FDA
28:23 --> 28:26dealt with it on the NHS with it?
28:26 --> 28:28It's a very emotionally charged
28:28 --> 28:33still even you know, 35 years later.
28:33 --> 28:36Situation, so I'm curious how.
28:36 --> 28:38How you navigated those emotions
28:38 --> 28:40for yourself, like how you managed
28:40 --> 28:43reporting on something so emotionally
28:43 --> 28:44provocative and well, it was.
28:44 --> 28:46It was an
28:46 --> 28:49after a while. My biggest fight with
28:49 --> 28:52this was to get stories on the air,
28:52 --> 28:54because when it became there
28:54 --> 28:56were these big periods in the
28:56 --> 28:58history of the AIDS epidemic.
28:58 --> 29:00HIV AIDS epidemic.
29:00 --> 29:03One is when Rock Hudson got sick and
29:03 --> 29:06suddenly this gorgeous leading man.
29:06 --> 29:09Why did so? Nobody knew he was gay and
29:09 --> 29:12Magic Johnson in 1991 and other celebrities.
29:12 --> 29:14So these you can see big spikes and
29:14 --> 29:17interest in a disease at those times.
29:17 --> 29:18But for the most part,
29:18 --> 29:20especially especially before Rock Hudson,
29:20 --> 29:22it was there wasn't as much interest
29:22 --> 29:25in it as I would have liked.
29:25 --> 29:27I would keep coming back and trying to
29:27 --> 29:30do stories and producers would say no,
29:30 --> 29:33you know, go do a story on breast
29:33 --> 29:36cancer or go do a story about.
29:36 --> 29:38Chronic fatigue syndrome or something like
29:38 --> 29:42that? Kind of critique central enough, right?
29:42 --> 29:44What was their logic? Just they wanted
29:44 --> 29:46more diverse. Well, they want people
29:46 --> 29:50to watch the TV and the man putting on
29:50 --> 29:52pictures of men who have sex with men or.
29:55 --> 29:56People who inject drugs does
29:56 --> 29:58not attract the audience that
29:58 --> 30:00the television network wants.
30:01 --> 30:04Interesting, well at the same time though,
30:04 --> 30:06the presence of publicity.
30:06 --> 30:08And and you know,
30:08 --> 30:09obviously I'm talking as someone
30:09 --> 30:10who wasn't there and you know,
30:10 --> 30:13I'm obviously not a scholar of this moment,
30:13 --> 30:15but. Having the publicity allowed the
30:15 --> 30:18science to catch up to the epidemic
30:18 --> 30:20and allowed these politically active
30:20 --> 30:23groups to be able to help sculpt policy.
30:23 --> 30:25And so it was
30:25 --> 30:29a great article. By Alan Brandt who's
30:29 --> 30:32a historian of medicine at Harvard.
30:32 --> 30:35It was in the New England Journal of Medicine
30:35 --> 30:38called How Aids created Global Health,
30:38 --> 30:40and I highly recommend that
30:40 --> 30:43you or your listeners check out
30:43 --> 30:45that that article because.
30:45 --> 30:48Many things that we take for granted today,
30:48 --> 30:49such as patient activism,
30:49 --> 30:52an the need to think about other
30:52 --> 30:54people in a cooperative way and not.
30:57 --> 30:59Not necessarily a condescending way which
30:59 --> 31:01a lot of international health before the
31:01 --> 31:03HIV epidemic was very condescending.
31:03 --> 31:06You know we are donors would
31:06 --> 31:08give with what they would give
31:08 --> 31:10and it was preceded by a period.
31:10 --> 31:13There was even worse which was
31:13 --> 31:14Tropical Medicine where we would.
31:14 --> 31:16You're protecting our own people
31:16 --> 31:18or our troops or whatever.
31:18 --> 31:21So that has to do with the
31:21 --> 31:24history of public health. But the.
31:24 --> 31:26AIDS made everything different.
31:26 --> 31:27Was very clear that there
31:27 --> 31:29was this massive epidemic,
31:29 --> 31:30an one of the.
31:30 --> 31:34And it it's and there's a lot of
31:34 --> 31:36fear right now that there's going
31:36 --> 31:40to be a second wave of of because
31:40 --> 31:43there's 23.3 million people on
31:43 --> 31:45antiretroviral drugs in the world
31:45 --> 31:47was an astounding achievement,
31:47 --> 31:47and the.
31:50 --> 31:52If and Trump has reauthorized the
31:52 --> 31:53Trump administration is reauthorized,
31:53 --> 31:55PEPFAR, which is the major
31:55 --> 31:57contributor for those bills.
31:57 --> 31:59There are other donors as well,
31:59 --> 32:01but the biggest chunk of that
32:01 --> 32:03comes from the US government,
32:03 --> 32:05and he proposes cutting into
32:05 --> 32:07budget for it every year.
32:07 --> 32:09An you people here in the Yale
32:09 --> 32:12School of Public Health and others
32:12 --> 32:14have done calculations you can do
32:14 --> 32:16just very cold calculations for
32:16 --> 32:18every $1,000,000 that gets cut back.
32:18 --> 32:22How many million people are going to die?
32:22 --> 32:22Because there?
32:22 --> 32:23There's no cure,
32:23 --> 32:25and as a result there's all these
32:25 --> 32:27people that are going to die
32:27 --> 32:28if they don't get their drugs.
32:29 --> 32:31So that's the intersection of
32:31 --> 32:33advocacy and policy. Then write an
32:33 --> 32:35in that that came about them into.
32:35 --> 32:38Don't forget the. Larry Kramer,
32:38 --> 32:40who I become I became very close
32:40 --> 32:42to the famous AIDS activist who
32:42 --> 32:44started the gay men's health crisis,
32:44 --> 32:47first as a support group in
32:47 --> 32:491981 and he started out.
32:49 --> 32:52Screaming and yelling at there was this
32:52 --> 32:54horrible thing going on and he was.
32:54 --> 32:56He had enormous pushback from other members
32:56 --> 32:59of the gay community that he was approved.
32:59 --> 33:01He wanted to close down the bath
33:01 --> 33:03houses that places where men went
33:03 --> 33:06to have ****** and that was a huge
33:06 --> 33:08part of the early years was fight
33:08 --> 33:10within the gay community over whether
33:10 --> 33:13to close down the bath houses and
33:13 --> 33:16Kramer then got tired of the just the
33:16 --> 33:19advocacy and he started acting up.
33:19 --> 33:22An act up accomplished a lot of
33:22 --> 33:24called attention to a lot of things,
33:24 --> 33:27but then act up spun off yet another group
33:27 --> 33:29called the Treatment Action Coalition,
33:29 --> 33:31which exists to this day and
33:31 --> 33:32as marvelous work,
33:32 --> 33:34because what they did was they learn
33:34 --> 33:36they became as knowledgeable about
33:36 --> 33:39the disease as many of the scientists,
33:39 --> 33:42so they thought and it was a big,
33:42 --> 33:44big fight to get a seat at the
33:44 --> 33:47table on FDA and NIH review panels.
33:47 --> 33:49And but they got it.
33:49 --> 33:51And it made a big difference,
33:51 --> 33:53and now it's standard procedure.
33:53 --> 33:54This consumer representatives and
33:54 --> 33:56all those things. But it didn't.
33:56 --> 33:58It wasn't always that way.
33:58 --> 34:00And then the even people who were
34:00 --> 34:03working full time on the problem at the
34:03 --> 34:05NIH were disgusted at the idea none.
34:05 --> 34:06Now that they were homophobic,
34:06 --> 34:08but that non scientists would
34:08 --> 34:09come into the room.
34:09 --> 34:12But if you talk to some of these non
34:12 --> 34:14scientists they actually had this,
34:14 --> 34:17you know there's.
34:17 --> 34:18Cat's encyclopedic knowledge.
34:18 --> 34:18That's
34:18 --> 34:20so I'm turning around my head
34:20 --> 34:23around this as as you know,
34:23 --> 34:25someone that knows a little
34:25 --> 34:27bit about the science but very
34:27 --> 34:29little about the you know,
34:29 --> 34:31the the advocacy component,
34:31 --> 34:34and so these people have got together
34:34 --> 34:36and act up an they engaged media.
34:36 --> 34:38They staged protests, Anaza results.
34:38 --> 34:42They were able to curb the public opinion,
34:42 --> 34:44which then also changed the way
34:44 --> 34:45science functions, right?
34:45 --> 34:47And there were.
34:47 --> 34:51Yes, because one of the big questions.
34:51 --> 34:53Which goes back to what I was.
34:53 --> 34:56I had mentioned Mary Lasker, Mary Lasker's,
34:56 --> 34:58and the 1971 War on Cancer was
34:58 --> 35:01based on the notion that we don't.
35:01 --> 35:03We can't just sit around
35:03 --> 35:04and wait for basic research.
35:04 --> 35:07We have to have targeted research and
35:07 --> 35:09that's huge policy argument about
35:09 --> 35:11where it where does work come from.
35:11 --> 35:13But but.
35:13 --> 35:16At some point you have to say that we
35:16 --> 35:18have this massive public health problem.
35:18 --> 35:20We have to just worry about
35:20 --> 35:22this and think about things that
35:22 --> 35:24will make a difference in this.
35:24 --> 35:25Anne Marie lost,
35:25 --> 35:28we wanted to do that with cancer and
35:28 --> 35:31it turned out it was way too early.
35:31 --> 35:33Nobody even when in 1971 nobody
35:33 --> 35:34even knew
35:34 --> 35:36what caused cancer. I mean it was
35:36 --> 35:38not. Uncle genes were not discovered.
35:38 --> 35:40They weren't discovered until 1976 in
35:40 --> 35:43chickens and then in 1981 and human beings.
35:43 --> 35:45So that was a lot of.
35:45 --> 35:47Time passed and everybody the money
35:47 --> 35:50it was was money and it did support
35:50 --> 35:52basic research that led to those
35:52 --> 35:54discoveries which are just now
35:54 --> 35:57starting to lead to drugs and well
35:57 --> 35:58the precision medicine you know.
35:58 --> 36:01Oncology is the poster child of precision
36:01 --> 36:03medicine nowadays right? Also the actual
36:03 --> 36:05numbers of people who get help or
36:05 --> 36:07are much lower than you would think
36:07 --> 36:09about because one of the difficulties
36:10 --> 36:12about doing a story about something
36:12 --> 36:14like a new immunotherapy for cancer
36:14 --> 36:16is you find somebody who was.
36:16 --> 36:19Almost dead yesterday and is now
36:19 --> 36:21is running the marathon and yeah,
36:21 --> 36:24but it turns out that only 12% of
36:24 --> 36:25people who get immunotherapy's
36:25 --> 36:28overall show any kind of response
36:28 --> 36:30that I'm talking about not talking
36:30 --> 36:32about surviving for years.
36:32 --> 36:34I'm just any kind of response,
36:34 --> 36:36let alone people who were.
36:38 --> 36:39What you would call a cure it
36:39 --> 36:41if you have go for several years
36:41 --> 36:43without recurrence? Well, so
36:43 --> 36:46how do you view so one of the
36:46 --> 36:48things I've observed is that.
36:48 --> 36:50More specifically in in psychiatry,
36:50 --> 36:52my field every five to 10 years.
36:52 --> 36:54Someone writes this paper that
36:54 --> 36:56we are about to enter the
36:56 --> 36:58Golden age of psychiatry, right?
36:58 --> 37:00See a lot of Golden Age is
37:00 --> 37:02a lot of goals, and
37:02 --> 37:05then you see it in every field of medicine
37:05 --> 37:08is a world where about we're about there,
37:08 --> 37:12I mean, and it's absolutely fascinating.
37:12 --> 37:14About how long things can take Francis
37:14 --> 37:18Collins, who's now the director of
37:18 --> 37:20the National Institutes of Health?
37:20 --> 37:23As head of the Human Genome Project
37:23 --> 37:24discovered, the gene for cystic
37:24 --> 37:27fibrosis in I have to look it up.
37:27 --> 37:28I don't have it.
37:28 --> 37:31I thought I had, but it was,
37:31 --> 37:32I think in the 1980s,
37:32 --> 37:34before the Genome project.
37:34 --> 37:35Yeah before long because yeah,
37:35 --> 37:38in the days when it took forever,
37:38 --> 37:40but it was just this last week
37:40 --> 37:42that the FDA approved a gene
37:42 --> 37:44based drug for cystic fibrosis.
37:44 --> 37:46That seems to be truly effective.
37:46 --> 37:46Oh, I
37:46 --> 37:48hadn't heard of that.
37:49 --> 37:52King, about decades between you and it
37:52 --> 37:54looks so exciting when you and it's true,
37:54 --> 37:56it was exciting to know that there
37:56 --> 37:59was this gene. But at the time,
37:59 --> 38:01kids with cystic fibrosis were
38:01 --> 38:03living there be 6 or 7 you know.
38:03 --> 38:05Now you have 40 and 50 year olds and
38:05 --> 38:08it looks like they may soon have a
38:08 --> 38:10completely normal life expectancy. So
38:10 --> 38:12so this perennial question of the Golden Age.
38:12 --> 38:14This is something that really
38:14 --> 38:16fascinates me and I spend time
38:16 --> 38:18agonizing over because a lot of it is,
38:18 --> 38:21you know, science is based on this.
38:21 --> 38:22Idea of of grants right?
38:22 --> 38:24If you want to be an academic scientist,
38:24 --> 38:25you write a grant for five years, right?
38:25 --> 38:27And you say I'm going to do this.
38:27 --> 38:29That and the other an at the
38:29 --> 38:32end of five years, you know.
38:32 --> 38:34Reflective scientists will be like did
38:34 --> 38:36I actually accomplish those things and
38:36 --> 38:39something that you know in your book
38:39 --> 38:41is how after there is this increased
38:41 --> 38:44funding for breast cancer or the NCI,
38:44 --> 38:46the National Cancer Institute had
38:46 --> 38:48their budget tripled or doubled.
38:48 --> 38:51His order order of magnitude all of a sudden.
38:51 --> 38:53All these scientists who were basic
38:53 --> 38:55scientists began to be interested
38:55 --> 38:56in a few sentences.
38:56 --> 38:59At the end of their granite
38:59 --> 39:00studying cancer right right?
39:00 --> 39:00And
39:00 --> 39:02you can do it, yeah?
39:02 --> 39:05Is pretty easy as you know,
39:05 --> 39:08as a scientist that to write those words in,
39:08 --> 39:10because almost any basic science
39:10 --> 39:13can be said to be relevant to the
39:13 --> 39:15cancer problem because the cancer
39:15 --> 39:18problem is how cells work, right?
39:18 --> 39:21Yes, how does the body where? How does the
39:21 --> 39:23body work and therefore you can
39:23 --> 39:26make it an it's interesting,
39:26 --> 39:28the immuno therapy stuff came
39:28 --> 39:30from 2 lines of research.
39:30 --> 39:32One was just really basic
39:32 --> 39:34research immunology and mice.
39:34 --> 39:35By James Allison.
39:35 --> 39:38When when he was at Berkeley,
39:38 --> 39:41now he's at MD Anderson an the
39:41 --> 39:44the other came from a discovery.
39:44 --> 39:47That was made very, very applied.
39:47 --> 39:49An HIV discovery that when the HIV
39:49 --> 39:52attacks the type of word but white
39:52 --> 39:55blood cells called CD four cells.
39:55 --> 39:57It doesn't just attach to
39:57 --> 39:5911 protein on the surface,
39:59 --> 40:00it attached.
40:00 --> 40:03To a coreceptor an there was a
40:03 --> 40:06study of sex workers female sex
40:06 --> 40:10workers in Nairobi which found that.
40:12 --> 40:13A very small percentage less
40:13 --> 40:16than one by far of them,
40:16 --> 40:18had unprotected sex with thousands
40:18 --> 40:20of men who were infected and it
40:20 --> 40:22never got the diseases themselves.
40:22 --> 40:24And it turned out that they had
40:24 --> 40:27a defect in this coreceptor Ann.
40:27 --> 40:29This is the Co receptor that makes up
40:29 --> 40:32what the basis for immunotherapy for cancer.
40:32 --> 40:35Now we have these two 2
40:35 --> 40:36lines of research that say
40:36 --> 40:38you never know, right?
40:38 --> 40:39Yeah, exactly unknown unknown.
40:39 --> 40:41Yeah you were working
40:41 --> 40:43with mice in a lab about.
40:43 --> 40:46Immunology is is one thing and but also
40:46 --> 40:48studying Kenyan sex workers is another.
40:48 --> 40:51Another thing is why is he why
40:51 --> 40:52somebody bothering to do this?
40:52 --> 40:55Well it turns out that you know
40:55 --> 40:57in the world one human being,
40:57 --> 40:59the Berlin patient has been cured
40:59 --> 41:01of HIV and it was because he
41:01 --> 41:03got a transplant from somebody
41:03 --> 41:05who had this defective receptor
41:05 --> 41:07as a treatment for leukemia.
41:07 --> 41:09So he is now cured of HIV.
41:09 --> 41:11Kind of incidentally yeah I saw
41:11 --> 41:12that but unfortunately it's
41:12 --> 41:14not something you want to.
41:14 --> 41:17Do is routinely, for you know,
41:17 --> 41:19the 35 million people in the
41:19 --> 41:21world who are moving with
41:21 --> 41:23HIV, but my head well.
41:23 --> 41:25So yes, I I fully.
41:25 --> 41:26I fully accept that.
41:26 --> 41:28You know serendipity is
41:28 --> 41:30a large part of science.
41:30 --> 41:32And embracing these serendipitous
41:32 --> 41:34discoveries often leads to.
41:34 --> 41:37Wonderful things like the unknown unknown.
41:37 --> 41:40So yeah, there's a lot of potential there.
41:40 --> 41:43However, one of the things that
41:43 --> 41:46makes me anxious is the selling of
41:46 --> 41:49science in a way that isn't completely
41:49 --> 41:51driven by the science itself.
41:51 --> 41:52O for example,
41:52 --> 41:55the the idea of selling your work is
41:55 --> 41:58being curated for a specific disease
41:58 --> 42:00when it's not directly related.
42:00 --> 42:03You know there is some salesmanship
42:03 --> 42:04in grantsmanship.
42:04 --> 42:07And you know, in order to get funded,
42:07 --> 42:09you have to get people excited.
42:09 --> 42:10However, this Golden age question.
42:15 --> 42:16Sorry, go ahead
42:16 --> 42:18and now the goal it well.
42:18 --> 42:20One of the things that happens if you talk
42:20 --> 42:22about there are lobbyists in Washington
42:22 --> 42:24who work on behalf of organizations
42:24 --> 42:26like the American Association for the
42:26 --> 42:29Advancement of Science or the American
42:29 --> 42:31Association of Universities. Anne.
42:31 --> 42:35The way that they have ways of doing it,
42:35 --> 42:37which is they tie it all it gets
42:37 --> 42:39tide up with other social service
42:39 --> 42:43programs and as a result it lifts the
42:43 --> 42:45tide and then then then scientists.
42:45 --> 42:48Add places like the NIH or the National
42:48 --> 42:51Science Foundation can make the decision
42:51 --> 42:54about what where the money should go,
42:54 --> 42:56and it doesn't just go to silly
42:56 --> 42:59projects that are designed to try to
42:59 --> 43:02cure diseases kind of offbeat way,
43:02 --> 43:05but a lot of stuff.
43:05 --> 43:07As you know, does get published.
43:07 --> 43:09It never gets replicated,
43:09 --> 43:11replicated or reproduced or refer to
43:11 --> 43:14and just goes off in the deep end,
43:14 --> 43:16and there's a lot of concern about that
43:16 --> 43:19and exactly how you steer this gigantic
43:19 --> 43:21ship and the scientific enterprise is
43:21 --> 43:23just growing so rapidly it if you look
43:23 --> 43:26at the charts of the number of journals,
43:26 --> 43:28the number of people working in
43:28 --> 43:29science and everything else.
43:29 --> 43:32So any argument that we're in an age
43:32 --> 43:35that's not a Golden age where we are.
43:35 --> 43:37Where the public doesn't support size.
43:37 --> 43:38I don't buy into that,
43:38 --> 43:39only we have we
43:39 --> 43:40have. So you think
43:40 --> 43:41this is the Golden age thing?
43:41 --> 43:43Yeah, we're definitely the
43:43 --> 43:44goal of the things that.
43:45 --> 43:47I hear about that are going on on this
43:47 --> 43:49campus and others and other institutes
43:49 --> 43:51around the country are just astounding
43:51 --> 43:54because the tools are getting so much better.
43:54 --> 43:57The Genome Project is the obvious one.
43:57 --> 44:00You know. It used to take months and months.
44:00 --> 44:04I mean I remember. The.
44:04 --> 44:07There aren't very many single.
44:07 --> 44:10Based as you know, the single gene disease
44:10 --> 44:14is caused by a defect in one gene or mute.
44:14 --> 44:16An alteration in one gene,
44:16 --> 44:19but the first one that we discovered
44:19 --> 44:20was Huntington's disease,
44:20 --> 44:23which was in 1984.
44:23 --> 44:25And it took them until 1994 to
44:25 --> 44:26actually sequence that gene because
44:26 --> 44:28the technology was so crude.
44:28 --> 44:30Now. Now if somebody knew
44:30 --> 44:31the location of that gene,
44:31 --> 44:33they could hear it, Yale,
44:33 --> 44:34it would put it outside.
44:34 --> 44:37They could do it in a much even faster way,
44:37 --> 44:40but usually what they do is they put it
44:40 --> 44:42outside their door in a bucket like you
44:42 --> 44:45see outside of your doctors office for
44:45 --> 44:47blood and urine samples is picked up.
44:47 --> 44:50It's taken to a gene sequencing and they get
44:50 --> 44:53it back in the morning on their computer.
44:53 --> 44:56And they can compare it to every
44:56 --> 44:58known gene sequence in every
44:58 --> 45:00animal creature on Earth an.
45:00 --> 45:01At best,
45:01 --> 45:02pretty Golden age. Yeah,
45:02 --> 45:04that's pretty Golden age and and
45:04 --> 45:05what's happening now is one
45:05 --> 45:07of the biggest problems is
45:07 --> 45:08there's so much data coming in.
45:08 --> 45:11How do you deal with all the data?
45:11 --> 45:12There's so much information? Well,
45:12 --> 45:14what are your thoughts on neuroscience then?
45:14 --> 45:16Like how do you view that?
45:16 --> 45:18Our understanding of the brain in relation
45:18 --> 45:20to these? Otherwise I think we have a
45:20 --> 45:22long way to go and understanding science.
45:22 --> 45:27What makes. It is very interesting if you.
45:27 --> 45:30Think about evolution and Richard Dawkins
45:30 --> 45:34who's one of my favorite writers of
45:34 --> 45:37all these brilliant actually written.
45:37 --> 45:40He but. And he he gets pounced on
45:40 --> 45:44all the time by the religious right,
45:44 --> 45:47because of he thinks that religion is a
45:47 --> 45:49meme term that he invented, but it's.
45:49 --> 45:52But it's a meme is a conscious thing.
45:52 --> 45:55It's not a gene and he and he
45:55 --> 45:57constantly says that we've developed a
45:57 --> 46:00consciousness we because we have a brain.
46:00 --> 46:01It came from evolution.
46:01 --> 46:03But we don't understand it.
46:03 --> 46:05We don't have the mechanism
46:05 --> 46:06to understand our own brains.
46:06 --> 46:09And as an example of why everything is
46:09 --> 46:12not driven by Darwinian natural selection,
46:12 --> 46:14he says, well, we wouldn't have.
46:14 --> 46:16Option one practice contraception
46:16 --> 46:18if we wanted to just increase our
46:18 --> 46:19our genes in the world.
46:19 --> 46:21Well so so I think his
46:21 --> 46:23arguments pretty sound though.
46:23 --> 46:25So like why would we suppose that our
46:25 --> 46:27brains evolved to understand the brain?
46:27 --> 46:29No, I don't think we have the
46:29 --> 46:31capacity to do that. So then.
46:31 --> 46:34So then what direction like in terms of
46:34 --> 46:36the Golden age of neuroscience then.
46:36 --> 46:38So so there have been many stories
46:38 --> 46:40purporting that this decade of the brain,
46:40 --> 46:42for example, right like you know,
46:42 --> 46:45we're going to devote a lot of money to this,
46:45 --> 46:47like we did with the.
46:47 --> 46:49Human genome and in 10 years will
46:49 --> 46:51shake her hand and what happened?
46:51 --> 46:53No, not much right.
46:53 --> 46:54There was a decade
46:54 --> 46:56of the brain. Sounds like a good idea
46:56 --> 46:59and I'm sure they pay for decent science.
46:59 --> 47:01I'm not up on the literature
47:01 --> 47:04on that. I don't know what to tell
47:04 --> 47:06ya to say that that we learned.
47:06 --> 47:08You know nothing is obviously false.
47:08 --> 47:11I mean we know wealth of information about
47:11 --> 47:13the brain, like how neurons function,
47:13 --> 47:15how they organized you, know sub circuits
47:15 --> 47:17and circuits and networks and systems.
47:17 --> 47:20Throughout the brain, but are we able to
47:20 --> 47:23bring that to the level of healthcare?
47:23 --> 47:25Not quite yet right?
47:25 --> 47:27And so that's the question then,
47:27 --> 47:30is like something that I've been musing over.
47:30 --> 47:32Is all of these movements.
47:32 --> 47:36I hope that I don't mean that in a
47:36 --> 47:39derogatory way to say like the AIDS.
47:39 --> 47:42Advocates were like a movement, but I don't.
47:42 --> 47:44I don't know another word to
47:44 --> 47:46describe that like that movement.
47:46 --> 47:48The cancer movement,
47:48 --> 47:50specifically the breast cancer movement.
47:50 --> 47:53These people were able to create a
47:53 --> 47:56lot of enthusiasm which then trickled
47:56 --> 47:58into the scientific enterprise
47:58 --> 48:00in the form of funding,
48:00 --> 48:03which then allows treatments to
48:03 --> 48:05eventually be brought to market.
48:05 --> 48:07Which one is lucky?
48:07 --> 48:08I mean,
48:08 --> 48:09there's feel like,
48:09 --> 48:12yeah, but it also allows the
48:12 --> 48:13scientific understanding.
48:13 --> 48:17Sometimes that doesn't wait to treatments.
48:17 --> 48:19And it's not a bad thing.
48:19 --> 48:21I mean, and there still is support
48:21 --> 48:23despite everything else for the.
48:23 --> 48:27Like the wonderful things that say,
48:27 --> 48:30Carl Zimmer writes about about the
48:30 --> 48:32interaction of a lichen and fungus and
48:32 --> 48:36sure or the which is terrifying. By the
48:36 --> 48:40way they are. Or or or
48:40 --> 48:42does this interest that we all have in in
48:42 --> 48:44the origin of human population migrations?
48:44 --> 48:46That's not going to. That probably is
48:46 --> 48:48not going to tell us anything that's
48:48 --> 48:50going to be useful in the clinic,
48:50 --> 48:53but I think it should be supported not
48:53 --> 48:55just because I like to read about it,
48:55 --> 48:57but I think, you know,
48:57 --> 48:58tells us more about who
48:58 --> 49:00we are and it's absolutely
49:00 --> 49:01fascinating. So any knowledge
49:01 --> 49:03is good knowledge, then yeah, well,
49:03 --> 49:04any yeah? Any knowledge that is not
49:04 --> 49:07used for destructive purposes as good
49:07 --> 49:08knowledge? Napalm? It's not
49:08 --> 49:09good. No, I don't think.
49:09 --> 49:11I don't think Napalm is good
49:11 --> 49:12under any circumstances,
49:12 --> 49:16and it goes for a lot of other other things.
49:16 --> 49:18But if you're thinking about.
49:18 --> 49:21The scientific enterprise.
49:21 --> 49:24Yeah, I get back to these Pew surveys.
49:24 --> 49:27Science has never been held in higher regard.
49:27 --> 49:30Let me people there are these awful
49:30 --> 49:33things that are going on like.
49:33 --> 49:34Cuts in environmental regulations
49:34 --> 49:36that are based on pseudoscience that,
49:36 --> 49:39but a lot of that is a political decision.
49:39 --> 49:42Are we willing to be like India and
49:42 --> 49:44China and breed really horrible air so
49:44 --> 49:47that some people can make more profits?
49:47 --> 49:50Or are we?
49:50 --> 49:52Those are political ideas and the
49:52 --> 49:55other the other thing that keeps
49:55 --> 49:58coming that I keep thinking about is.
49:58 --> 50:00This idea of the.
50:00 --> 50:04Global warming and climate change are so.
50:04 --> 50:07Threatening that are we wasting our time
50:07 --> 50:09thinking about almost anything else?
50:09 --> 50:11And there are people that make that argument.
50:11 --> 50:14Jonathan Franzen had a very good piece.
50:14 --> 50:16And then in The New Yorker a
50:16 --> 50:18few months ago about that,
50:18 --> 50:21that it's so hopeless that.
50:21 --> 50:23So we we we go on as if our children our
50:23 --> 50:26grandchildren are going to have decent lives.
50:26 --> 50:27Whenever I was talking about
50:27 --> 50:28the financial aspects of my
50:28 --> 50:30generation versus your generation,
50:30 --> 50:32but think about what it could be
50:32 --> 50:34like for our kids and our grandkids.
50:34 --> 50:36If if the world really goes to
50:36 --> 50:38hell in the way it seems to be in
50:38 --> 50:41a lot of people think it will be
50:41 --> 50:42because of reinforcing.
50:42 --> 50:45Feedbacks that are just getting worse and
50:45 --> 50:47worse and nobody is doing anything about
50:47 --> 50:50it at any kind of scale that it could.
50:50 --> 50:52Matter and so maybe you know you
50:52 --> 50:55thinking about the brain or me talking
50:55 --> 50:57about breast cancer activism for HIV,
50:57 --> 50:59AIDS, or even trying to illuminate.
50:59 --> 51:00And it's horrible.
51:00 --> 51:02Probably you know, tuberculosis or HIV,
51:02 --> 51:05aids and all these other terrible
51:05 --> 51:06global health problems.
51:06 --> 51:08But all that could be meaningless
51:08 --> 51:11in a big hurry if if climate change
51:11 --> 51:13gets so bad that there's no food
51:13 --> 51:16and there's a lack of water and all
51:16 --> 51:20that, well, so so this is again an area that.
51:20 --> 51:22You know you see the science, right?
51:22 --> 51:25The science is fairly clear and robust.
51:25 --> 51:27I mean, there are these models
51:27 --> 51:29that have been known for decades,
51:29 --> 51:30and there are advocacy groups
51:30 --> 51:32like there's a movement.
51:32 --> 51:34You know that it's getting
51:34 --> 51:35more popular with young
51:35 --> 51:38people, which is good. Which is good. But
51:38 --> 51:40so, like when, how do you
51:40 --> 51:42view a critical mass forming?
51:42 --> 51:44So at what point? I don't know. This
51:44 --> 51:47is not something that I've been involved in.
51:47 --> 51:51Sometimes I feel like I should be.
51:51 --> 51:53You know involved in it and you
51:53 --> 51:55see things like Jane Fonda getting
51:55 --> 51:57arrested every Friday along with
51:57 --> 51:59a bunch of other celebrities.
51:59 --> 52:02Now on the steps of the Capitol.
52:02 --> 52:04Maybe that will call attention to it,
52:04 --> 52:07but it's very hard to wrap your
52:07 --> 52:09head around how bad it is an
52:09 --> 52:11particularly because you've got just
52:11 --> 52:14become a religion to be against it.
52:14 --> 52:15For certain political parties.
52:15 --> 52:17So people are much more.
52:19 --> 52:21Aligned to disbelieve it even,
52:21 --> 52:23even though the evidence is stronger.
52:23 --> 52:25And also it's happening over a time
52:25 --> 52:27frame that we don't quite understand.
52:27 --> 52:30Have a new treatment for cystic
52:30 --> 52:31fibrosis or cancer comes along.
52:31 --> 52:33Yeah yesterday it wasn't here today
52:33 --> 52:36is here and we suddenly see it.
52:36 --> 52:37This is given
52:37 --> 52:40to patients better and in some way. But this
52:40 --> 52:44doesn't work that way. Anne.
52:44 --> 52:46It could be just awful an I I don't
52:46 --> 52:48know if there are people here an
52:48 --> 52:50elsewhere here yell and elsewhere who
52:50 --> 52:53work at the idea of communicating this.
52:53 --> 52:55You know, how do you tell people
52:55 --> 52:57this is such a serious problem
52:57 --> 52:59that we have to worry about it?
52:59 --> 53:01I remember even a few one of
53:01 --> 53:03the few times we were talking
53:03 --> 53:05bout good reactions to stories.
53:05 --> 53:07I did it with the one time
53:07 --> 53:09I got a lot of hate Mail.
53:09 --> 53:12And in those days it was just Mail.
53:12 --> 53:13It was an email or social
53:13 --> 53:16media when I did a story about.
53:16 --> 53:16Global warming,
53:16 --> 53:18one of the first stories when
53:18 --> 53:20I was starting to become more
53:20 --> 53:22public issue what year is that?
53:22 --> 53:24Oh, is in the 80s eighties.
53:24 --> 53:26Brian Johansson came out and but
53:26 --> 53:28it didn't phase and people can't.
53:28 --> 53:29You know, then,
53:29 --> 53:31when it's really hot on the East
53:31 --> 53:33Coast and everybody in Washington,
53:33 --> 53:34New York's miserable and or
53:34 --> 53:36there's a power outage.
53:36 --> 53:37Or there's a big hurricane.
53:37 --> 53:39Now people are starting to
53:39 --> 53:40accept the severe weather.
53:40 --> 53:43Is is part of global climate change and
53:43 --> 53:45that wasn't accepted for a long time.
53:45 --> 53:47Well, so so this is.
53:47 --> 53:50One of my editors at Scientific
53:50 --> 53:51American, Mike Lemonick,
53:51 --> 53:54who had interviewed for this podcast.
53:54 --> 53:56He and I had a discussion
53:56 --> 53:58about the impact of science
53:58 --> 54:00journalism on science policy,
54:00 --> 54:03and so I'm curious if you feel
54:03 --> 54:05like your journalism in AIDS and
54:05 --> 54:07cancer treatments and you covered
54:07 --> 54:10Alzheimer's and Human Genome project,
54:10 --> 54:13do you feel like that has had an
54:13 --> 54:16affect in sculpting policy? I
54:16 --> 54:17think not mine necessarily,
54:17 --> 54:19but overall it does.
54:19 --> 54:21I think that awareness does
54:21 --> 54:22help people appreciate where
54:22 --> 54:24their tax dollars are going,
54:24 --> 54:28but there and that's been part of perhaps
54:28 --> 54:31the reason that there was not a lot of.
54:31 --> 54:33Objection to it science is
54:33 --> 54:34always done pretty well.
54:34 --> 54:37I'd get has its ups and downs
54:37 --> 54:39and you mentioned before the
54:39 --> 54:41when the NIH doubled its budget,
54:41 --> 54:43which was a huge mistake that
54:43 --> 54:46was made during the Clinton Bill
54:46 --> 54:47Clinton administration, the.
54:49 --> 54:51They doubled the budget,
54:51 --> 54:53but then they didn't fall through,
54:53 --> 54:55so there's all these graduate students
54:55 --> 54:57and postdocs who suddenly given fell
54:57 --> 55:00off a Cliff like doubling the
55:00 --> 55:01enrollment in medical school without
55:01 --> 55:03doubling residency right exactly.
55:03 --> 55:06Yeah, it was a bad idea, yeah?
55:06 --> 55:08But then again, there's a big tendency to.
55:08 --> 55:11If somebody puts money on the
55:11 --> 55:13table to take it and not say
55:13 --> 55:15we're not going to take that.
55:15 --> 55:18But but those stories are satisfying.
55:18 --> 55:19I enjoy reading about.
55:19 --> 55:22Science or and I enjoy just like I
55:22 --> 55:25enjoy a good play or a movie that
55:25 --> 55:27has nothing to do with science.
55:27 --> 55:29It's part of the human experience
55:29 --> 55:32and I think that it makes people feel
55:32 --> 55:34satisfied to get good information.
55:34 --> 55:35Well, you certainly made
55:35 --> 55:37thousands of millions of people satisfied.
55:37 --> 55:40Flickering through the years and I guess
55:40 --> 55:43we're actually running a little low on time.
55:43 --> 55:45I don't want you to be late
55:45 --> 55:48for your new class, OK?
55:48 --> 55:51But we are OK. We are we OK?
55:51 --> 55:54Yeah, I think we have 5 minutes 5 minutes.
55:54 --> 55:56OK, I use magic that out about time,
55:56 --> 55:59but you know, just in the last
55:59 --> 56:01five minutes here I'm like what?
56:01 --> 56:02Where do you see science
56:02 --> 56:04journalism an going in the future?
56:04 --> 56:07I because I have this sense that science
56:07 --> 56:09is becoming more and more complex and
56:09 --> 56:11to be able to report about science,
56:11 --> 56:13you're going to have to become
56:13 --> 56:14more and more sophisticated.
56:14 --> 56:16Like for example, you you had a,
56:16 --> 56:20you know, a whole leg and not just a shoe.
56:20 --> 56:22Because you had a lot of scientific
56:22 --> 56:25training and so that gave you a springboard
56:25 --> 56:27into the world of science journalism.
56:27 --> 56:30So how do you feel the next generation
56:30 --> 56:32of science journalists are going
56:32 --> 56:34to feel very optimistic about it?
56:34 --> 56:36Because like the stuff that you do in
56:36 --> 56:39Scientific American and all the good
56:39 --> 56:41stuff that's in National Geographic sites,
56:41 --> 56:43and there, there is an enormous
56:43 --> 56:45amount of good information out there.
56:45 --> 56:47And there are certain percentage
56:47 --> 56:48of people who seek it.
56:48 --> 56:51The big problems are that a lot of
56:51 --> 56:53stuff gets trivialized, particularly.
56:53 --> 56:54Nutritional Epidemiology, you know,
56:54 --> 56:56I can promise you that they'll in
56:56 --> 56:58February there will be stories
56:58 --> 56:59that just before Valentine's Day
56:59 --> 57:01that chocolate is good for you.
57:03 --> 57:05Yeah this and wanted by Hershey.
57:05 --> 57:07Sponsored by you know somebody will
57:07 --> 57:09do is to study of 17 people and find
57:09 --> 57:12out that there's an antioxidant.
57:12 --> 57:15Chocolate of course you have to eat so
57:15 --> 57:19much of the chocolate you gain 10 pounds.
57:19 --> 57:23But the and those things are constant.
57:27 --> 57:28Uh, with evergreens,
57:28 --> 57:30they think they're constantly showing
57:30 --> 57:33up on the morning talk shows like
57:33 --> 57:35the Today Show and Good Morning
57:35 --> 57:37America and the CBS Morning show.
57:37 --> 57:40The people are all whole another.
57:40 --> 57:44John Oliver did a great spot on this on.
57:44 --> 57:48John Oliver did a very good spot
57:48 --> 57:51about science, journalism and.
57:51 --> 57:53It in the whole lot of stuff
57:53 --> 57:55gets blown on it, blown up.
57:55 --> 57:57Out of proportion.
57:57 --> 58:00And it's not just.
58:00 --> 58:02These small studies get a lot
58:02 --> 58:04of attention because they come
58:04 --> 58:06to a result that people want
58:06 --> 58:08to hear or it scares people or
58:08 --> 58:09whatever it takes to.
58:09 --> 58:10I love the wine study.
58:10 --> 58:12Yeah, one drink two to three
58:12 --> 58:14glasses of wine. Your heart.
58:14 --> 58:15Well yeah, right and under the
58:15 --> 58:17guise Sinclair it at Harvard,
58:17 --> 58:18David Sinclair has been fortunate
58:18 --> 58:20company to try supposedly distills
58:20 --> 58:22the antioxidant from red wine into a
58:22 --> 58:24pill that prevents you from aging.
58:24 --> 58:26So why would you ever want to take the
58:26 --> 58:29pill? And you can just drink the wine?
58:29 --> 58:31Yeah, exactly exactly. You have to drink.
58:31 --> 58:33Case of it together, but alright here.
58:33 --> 58:36Let's say in an afternoon. But
58:36 --> 58:39but the as I clear that that's going to work.
58:39 --> 58:42The problem is that that part of the
58:42 --> 58:45scientific process is not as getting better.
58:45 --> 58:47Major publications like the New
58:47 --> 58:48York Times and Washington Post,
58:48 --> 58:50and I think to a certain extent
58:50 --> 58:52the networks in their coverage
58:52 --> 58:54have done less of that dude.
58:54 --> 58:56Taking small studies and they can
58:56 --> 58:59go for a whole lot of reasons,
58:59 --> 59:01go either way and making
59:01 --> 59:03a big deal out of it.
59:05 --> 59:08But there is a lot of lack of
59:08 --> 59:09understanding of the need for.
59:11 --> 59:14This consistent beta the data coming to
59:14 --> 59:16the same conclusion before you make it
59:16 --> 59:18recommendation and a lot of things changed.
59:18 --> 59:20I mean it was a really big deal in the
59:20 --> 59:231990s when the Women's Health Initiative
59:23 --> 59:25showed that hormone replacement
59:25 --> 59:27therapy was not was more harmful than
59:27 --> 59:29beneficial and millions of women
59:29 --> 59:31there went off it in an afternoon and
59:31 --> 59:33suffered severe consequences like hot
59:33 --> 59:35flashes and feeling really terrible.
59:35 --> 59:37But there have been all these small
59:37 --> 59:40studies and when I was guilty of doing,
59:40 --> 59:42going along with some of these
59:42 --> 59:43small studies that said.
59:43 --> 59:46It enhanced your memory at made,
59:46 --> 59:48made a woman's skin better and
59:48 --> 59:50all kinds of stuff.
59:50 --> 59:52And it turned out it when somebody actually
59:52 --> 59:55did the giant randomized control trial.
59:55 --> 59:56It wasn't the case.
59:56 --> 59:59Well, maybe then part of the you know,
59:59 --> 60:01science. Education that science
60:01 --> 60:03journalists give should be more
60:03 --> 60:05focused on the process of science.
60:05 --> 60:06Rather, the process of
60:06 --> 60:08science before you knowing the
60:08 --> 60:10process of science before you report
60:10 --> 60:13it is very important and that there
60:13 --> 60:14are organizations like Annenberg
60:14 --> 60:17Foundation supports a lot of of
60:17 --> 60:18it's called there's a journalist.
60:18 --> 60:21Tip Sheet is not just about science,
60:21 --> 60:23but it tells you how to.
60:23 --> 60:25How to approach this subject and
60:25 --> 60:28to think about it and frame it.
60:28 --> 60:31And you might want to talk to.
60:31 --> 60:32Look at these resources and there is
60:32 --> 60:35the AAA S the American associated with
60:35 --> 60:37advancement of science has a whole
60:37 --> 60:39lot of resources for journalists,
60:39 --> 60:41so because a lot of mainstream publications
60:41 --> 60:43have cut back on their science reporting,
60:43 --> 60:46so you don't have people who do it day
60:46 --> 60:49in and day out who know the process.
60:49 --> 60:51So that's why you get the
60:51 --> 60:52somebody from USA TODAY.
60:52 --> 60:53Calling somebody out, asking stupid
60:53 --> 60:55questions because they they don't have.
60:55 --> 60:57They don't have background.
60:57 --> 60:59They used to have a lot.
60:59 --> 61:00USA TODAY as an example.
61:00 --> 61:03They used to have a big size step.
61:03 --> 61:08And if they laid off almost all an.
61:08 --> 61:11So there, but for people who want
61:11 --> 61:13good information is out there.
61:13 --> 61:17I think that there's not a danger that.
61:17 --> 61:20An when things happen that scare
61:20 --> 61:22public health people enough,
61:22 --> 61:24the.
61:24 --> 61:25Like vaccine hesitancy,
61:25 --> 61:27there is a growing movement to
61:27 --> 61:29handle it correctly.
61:29 --> 61:30It hasn't worked with edit
61:30 --> 61:32global warming yet,
61:32 --> 61:34but I think is young people get
61:34 --> 61:36more interested in adults.
61:36 --> 61:38It is more of a defining
61:38 --> 61:40issue than they have when I
61:40 --> 61:42certainly hope so, especially
61:42 --> 61:43for creating great grandchildren.
61:43 --> 61:45I don't think it's going
61:45 --> 61:47to be great. I think as
61:47 --> 61:48we grandchildren,
61:48 --> 61:50grandchildren they're going to
61:50 --> 61:53really have to look at these.
61:53 --> 61:55120 degree Fahrenheit days.
61:55 --> 61:57There are occurring out regularly in
61:57 --> 62:00Bombay and these water tables going
62:00 --> 62:02down all over the world and crop
62:02 --> 62:04shifting and things like Dengue a
62:04 --> 62:07moving North in a big hurry because
62:07 --> 62:10of mosquitoes are moving or it's
62:10 --> 62:12those are all that matters and well,
62:12 --> 62:14maybe we should be re channel
62:14 --> 62:17their energy into global warming.
62:17 --> 62:19May be very helpful thing.
62:19 --> 62:21Well thank you so much for coming.
62:21 --> 62:24Yeah, I've really enjoyed speaking with
62:35 --> 62:36Hope you enjoyed that episode.
62:36 --> 62:39Thanks again to Bob for being on the podcast.
62:39 --> 62:42You can find Bob on Twitter at Robert
62:42 --> 62:44Buzzell and that's at Robert Bazell.
62:44 --> 62:47You can also find him at his adjunct
62:47 --> 62:48faculty profile page at yale.edu.
62:48 --> 62:51You could also purchase this book her too,
62:51 --> 62:52at your favorite bookseller.
62:52 --> 62:55Pretty sure I picked up a copy on
62:55 --> 62:57Amazon.com and it arrived in two days.
62:57 --> 62:58It was awesome.
62:58 --> 63:00Thanks to the Yale School of
63:00 --> 63:02Medicine for sponsoring the podcast,
63:02 --> 63:04and especially to Adrian Bottom
63:04 --> 63:06Burger for producing this podcast
63:06 --> 63:08and Ryan McEvoy for sound editing.
63:08 --> 63:10Special thanks to you for listening again.
63:10 --> 63:11My name is Daniel Barron
63:11 --> 63:13and I've been your host.
63:13 --> 63:16An will see you next time on science at all.

Information

In this episode of Science et al., Daniel speaks with Robert Bazell, who worked as NBC's chief science correspondent for 38 years. In that capacity Robert earned many awards including five Emmys, the Peabody Award and the DuPont Award. The two discuss how science meshes with politics, social movements, and the scientific community itself.

6138

To Cite

DCA Citation Guide