Spirituality and Cancer

Transcript

00:00 --> 00:02Funding for Yale Cancer Answers is
00:02 --> 00:04provided by Smilow Cancer Hospital.
00:06 --> 00:08Welcome to Yale Cancer Answers
00:08 --> 00:10with Doctor Anees Chagpar.
00:10 --> 00:12Yale Cancer Answers features the
00:12 --> 00:14latest information on cancer care
00:14 --> 00:15by welcoming oncologists and
00:15 --> 00:17specialists who are on the forefront
00:17 --> 00:19of the battle to fight cancer.
00:19 --> 00:21This week it's a conversation
00:21 --> 00:23about the role of a chaplain in
00:23 --> 00:25palliative care with Jane Jeuland.
00:25 --> 00:27Miss Jeuland is an outpatient
00:27 --> 00:28palliative care chaplain with the
00:28 --> 00:30Smilow Palliative Care program.
00:30 --> 00:31And Dr. Chagpar
00:31 --> 00:33is a professor of surgical
00:33 --> 00:36oncology at the Yale School of Medicine.
00:36 --> 00:39Jane, maybe we can start off by you
00:39 --> 00:42telling us a bit more about what you
00:42 --> 00:44do and the role
00:44 --> 00:47that you play for cancer patients.
00:47 --> 00:50Sure. So I am the outpatient
00:50 --> 00:52palliative care chaplain.
00:52 --> 00:54And what that really entails
00:54 --> 00:58is that I meet with patients either
00:58 --> 01:01by video, phone, or in person and I
01:01 --> 01:03meet with them for about an hour,
01:03 --> 01:06usually a couple times a month.
01:06 --> 01:10And we process all that they're going
01:10 --> 01:14through spiritually as they journey in this
01:14 --> 01:17cancer treatment world,
01:17 --> 01:20all the ups and downs and the roller coaster.
01:20 --> 01:24I also run groups as well and
01:24 --> 01:26help people who are interested
01:26 --> 01:29in writing their life story.
01:29 --> 01:31So it's a variety of approaches.
01:32 --> 01:35When we think about cancer
01:35 --> 01:37patients and particularly those who
01:37 --> 01:39are looking at the end of life,
01:39 --> 01:43I can imagine that for many patients that can
01:43 --> 01:47entail almost an existential crisis, right?
01:47 --> 01:49Thinking about the big questions,
01:49 --> 01:53what happens after death?
01:53 --> 01:56What's the meaning of life?
01:56 --> 01:58Does God exist and what
01:58 --> 02:01is that relationship going to look like
02:01 --> 02:04and what happens in the hereafter?
02:04 --> 02:07How do you approach that with patients
02:07 --> 02:11who are going through these really big,
02:11 --> 02:12heavy questions?
02:14 --> 02:15Yeah, that's such a good question.
02:15 --> 02:18It is something that comes up regularly
02:18 --> 02:21with the patients that I serve,
02:21 --> 02:25many of whom are facing a terminal diagnosis.
02:25 --> 02:28And so it definitely is at the
02:28 --> 02:30forefront of their mind and something
02:30 --> 02:32that they would like to talk about.
02:32 --> 02:34And you know, chaplains are trained
02:34 --> 02:37really to meet people where they are.
02:37 --> 02:40And so our training is really about
02:40 --> 02:43how to help people discover what
02:43 --> 02:47they believe and what they value.
02:47 --> 02:49And so when I'm faced with
02:49 --> 02:51questions like that, I often will,
02:51 --> 02:53as with any other topic,
02:53 --> 02:56kind of ask them a little bit more
02:56 --> 02:58about do they have a sense of what the
02:58 --> 03:01afterlife is like and what are things
03:01 --> 03:04that they may have believed in the past
03:04 --> 03:06that maybe now they don't believe so
03:06 --> 03:08much anymore, they're questioning or
03:08 --> 03:10what are some new beliefs that
03:10 --> 03:12they have recently learned
03:12 --> 03:14about and they're trying to explore
03:14 --> 03:15and learn more about in particular
03:15 --> 03:18as it relates to the afterlife.
03:18 --> 03:20And certainly I do get patients who kind
03:20 --> 03:22of push me a bit more and say okay, great,
03:23 --> 03:24I've shared what I know,
03:24 --> 03:26but I really still want to know what you
03:26 --> 03:28know chaplain and what you think about it.
03:28 --> 03:29And of course,
03:29 --> 03:33none of us have had the
03:33 --> 03:36experience of dying.
03:36 --> 03:39And so we don't know for sure.
03:39 --> 03:41But I like to kind of talk with
03:41 --> 03:43them a little bit about some of
03:43 --> 03:44the different religions,
03:44 --> 03:46what they express about the afterlife
03:46 --> 03:48and then explore that with
03:48 --> 03:50them and see sort of what
03:50 --> 03:51really resonates with them.
03:53 --> 03:54And that brings up the next
03:54 --> 03:56question which I was going to ask,
03:56 --> 04:00which is, as a chaplain
04:00 --> 04:03you must interact with people from a
04:03 --> 04:06whole variety of faith backgrounds,
04:06 --> 04:09including people who are atheist
04:09 --> 04:12or agnostic all the way through,
04:12 --> 04:16not only all of the
04:16 --> 04:19denominations of Christianity and Judaism,
04:19 --> 04:21but you know Muslims,
04:21 --> 04:23Hindus, Sikhs,
04:23 --> 04:27it is so many different religions
04:27 --> 04:30as we live in a pluralist society.
04:30 --> 04:32How does that work exactly?
04:32 --> 04:37I mean do people know that chaplains
04:37 --> 04:41have a training in other faiths
04:41 --> 04:44that they may not personally subscribe
04:44 --> 04:46to and do you feel comfortable
04:46 --> 04:49discussing issues of
04:49 --> 04:51faith with people from different
04:51 --> 04:54backgrounds or do you call in other
04:54 --> 04:56people, or how does that work?
04:59 --> 05:01Great questions. So I really,
05:01 --> 05:03really enjoy working with people
05:03 --> 05:05of all different faiths.
05:05 --> 05:10I love to see how their faith and
05:10 --> 05:13spirituality helps them through and
05:13 --> 05:16how so many different approaches
05:16 --> 05:18are really in some ways the
05:18 --> 05:20tastes of the divine and the
05:20 --> 05:22spiritual and that which is
05:22 --> 05:24beyond kind of the physical realm.
05:24 --> 05:27And how all these different
05:27 --> 05:28spiritualities and beliefs
05:28 --> 05:30really can help people so much.
05:30 --> 05:33And so I feel like I get a front row
05:33 --> 05:35seat into seeing all these beautiful,
05:35 --> 05:37different expressions of the divine.
05:37 --> 05:40And you know,
05:40 --> 05:43not every patient does know that
05:43 --> 05:45we're trained to serve people
05:45 --> 05:47of all different faiths.
05:48 --> 05:52For some people who have a
05:52 --> 05:53particular faith tradition,
05:53 --> 05:55that's actually a little bit confusing.
05:55 --> 05:57Kind of how do you do this?
05:57 --> 05:59How do you have your own
05:59 --> 06:02personal faith but then meet with
06:02 --> 06:04people of different faiths?
06:04 --> 06:05And, you know,
06:05 --> 06:08for many people it's
06:08 --> 06:10refreshing to hear that I'm someone
06:10 --> 06:13who in many ways is kind of neutral.
06:13 --> 06:15And so even if they have,
06:15 --> 06:16you know,
06:16 --> 06:19a clergy member that they can speak to,
06:19 --> 06:21they like the idea that they can
06:21 --> 06:23come to a chaplain and really
06:23 --> 06:26speak so openly about some of the
06:26 --> 06:28doubts and the fears that they
06:28 --> 06:31have without feeling like they're
06:31 --> 06:33going to be judged or taught,
06:33 --> 06:36this is wrong.
06:36 --> 06:37You should believe this.
06:37 --> 06:39And I think for the most part,
06:39 --> 06:42clergy in the community wouldn't do that.
06:42 --> 06:43But it's still,
06:43 --> 06:46the sense of safety
06:46 --> 06:47that we bring as chaplains,
06:47 --> 06:49interfaith chaplains.
06:50 --> 06:51Yeah, that's such a
06:51 --> 06:53good point and something that
06:53 --> 06:54I hadn't really thought about.
06:54 --> 06:57But you can imagine that if you grew up
06:57 --> 07:00in a particular House of worship and you
07:00 --> 07:02knew the clergy
07:02 --> 07:04in that House of worship,
07:04 --> 07:07and then you had, you know,
07:07 --> 07:09things that were weighing on your soul,
07:09 --> 07:12particularly at the end of life
07:12 --> 07:14where you wanted to talk about it,
07:14 --> 07:18or you wanted to confess it or you wanted
07:18 --> 07:20to kind of get help working through it,
07:20 --> 07:25it might be difficult to go to somebody
07:25 --> 07:27who you've known all your life.
07:27 --> 07:29I mean, it might be very easy,
07:29 --> 07:33but it might be difficult as well,
07:33 --> 07:34depending on what it is.
07:34 --> 07:38If there was an element of shame
07:38 --> 07:41or of anxiety associated with,
07:41 --> 07:43it might not be something that you
07:43 --> 07:45would really feel comfortable sharing
07:45 --> 07:47with somebody that that knows you.
07:48 --> 07:50Exactly, exactly.
07:50 --> 07:51And then, you know,
07:51 --> 07:54there are a lot of people to who their
07:54 --> 07:57faith leaders are in transition.
07:57 --> 08:00I think particularly now post pandemic,
08:00 --> 08:02a lot of faith institutions
08:02 --> 08:04are finding that they just don't
08:04 --> 08:06have enough people there and so
08:06 --> 08:08they're combining with other places.
08:08 --> 08:10And so I've actually run into
08:10 --> 08:12a lot of people over the years,
08:12 --> 08:13even before the pandemic,
08:13 --> 08:15who would say, oh, we had a
08:15 --> 08:17pastor but now
08:17 --> 08:18that person has
08:18 --> 08:20transitioned or is retired,
08:20 --> 08:22and we're looking for someone and
08:22 --> 08:24so this is also just a safe
08:24 --> 08:26place to land where they know
08:26 --> 08:27they'll have that consistency
08:27 --> 08:29throughout their cancer treatment.
08:29 --> 08:31And as you mentioned too,
08:31 --> 08:34we chaplains serve people of all different
08:34 --> 08:36faiths but also atheists, agnostics,
08:36 --> 08:39and people who are really searching.
08:39 --> 08:42And I do find that there
08:42 --> 08:44are a lot of people who
08:44 --> 08:47may have had a faith
08:47 --> 08:49tradition of their childhood,
08:49 --> 08:51maybe sort of stopped going
08:53 --> 08:55and now they find themselves
08:55 --> 08:58kind of thinking I'd like to
08:58 --> 09:00revisit that or perhaps
09:00 --> 09:01think about a new religion.
09:01 --> 09:03And so again,
09:03 --> 09:05we're really a neutral place
09:05 --> 09:07where people can explore all
09:07 --> 09:09of that in a safe environment.
09:10 --> 09:14And I can imagine that there
09:14 --> 09:17are some common threads throughout all
09:17 --> 09:20faith traditions and even amongst
09:20 --> 09:22atheists and agnostics that may come
09:22 --> 09:24up particularly at the end of life.
09:24 --> 09:27And things that I'm thinking about
09:27 --> 09:31are mending broken fences and
09:31 --> 09:33relationships and seeking forgiveness and
09:33 --> 09:37kind of thinking about the next journey
09:37 --> 09:41whatever that is with a a clean slate.
09:41 --> 09:44And so I would imagine that part of
09:44 --> 09:48your role might be to help people
09:48 --> 09:51who are struggling with how exactly
09:51 --> 09:53do you do that right.
09:53 --> 09:56I haven't spoken to so and so,
09:56 --> 10:00my cousin, my whatever in decades
10:00 --> 10:02now I'm looking at the end of life
10:02 --> 10:05and I'm thinking,
10:05 --> 10:09maybe what caused that rift in
10:09 --> 10:10the grand scheme of things,
10:10 --> 10:13when you look at it from a larger lens,
10:13 --> 10:16might not be as big as it once
10:16 --> 10:17was thought to be.
10:17 --> 10:19And maybe people are starting
10:19 --> 10:21to think about,
10:21 --> 10:24I really want to wipe the
10:24 --> 10:26slate clean and I want to connect,
10:26 --> 10:30but I'm not really sure how to do that.
10:30 --> 10:32And I'm not really sure how to broach
10:32 --> 10:36those topics and ask for forgiveness
10:36 --> 10:40and grant forgiveness as well.
10:40 --> 10:42Can you talk a little bit about that and
10:42 --> 10:45if that's a role that you play
10:45 --> 10:48and how you approach that?
10:48 --> 10:51This is a topic that
10:51 --> 10:54I would really work closely with our
10:54 --> 10:57social workers as well on in particular
10:57 --> 11:01if there's estrangement or you know,
11:01 --> 11:02complicated family dynamics,
11:02 --> 11:04I always collaborate with our
11:04 --> 11:07social worker on that and so sometimes
11:07 --> 11:09they'll meet and we
11:09 --> 11:12even meet together,
11:12 --> 11:15but in terms of the forgiveness
11:15 --> 11:16component of it,
11:16 --> 11:19that is something that comes up quite a bit.
11:19 --> 11:24And there's times where they
11:24 --> 11:28may really want to say sorry to someone,
11:28 --> 11:32but that person's just not ready to hear it,
11:32 --> 11:34doesn't want to hear it based on
11:34 --> 11:36what happened in the past.
11:36 --> 11:37And you know, vice versa,
11:37 --> 11:41there might be someone that really harmed
11:41 --> 11:47the patient and they have never said sorry.
11:47 --> 11:49And so how do we deal with that kind
11:49 --> 11:51of resentment and pain and hurt?
11:51 --> 11:54When I talk with folks,
11:54 --> 11:57I've actually at times even helped
11:59 --> 12:02people sit in a posture of meditation
12:02 --> 12:05of reflection and prayer and even
12:05 --> 12:07say the words with me,
12:07 --> 12:09I forgive you or I'm sorry.
12:09 --> 12:12And then we meditate on it.
12:12 --> 12:14We pray about it according to
12:14 --> 12:16their tradition, of course,
12:16 --> 12:19and unpack the fact that sometimes
12:19 --> 12:22we don't get the mutuality
12:22 --> 12:23of that discussion.
12:23 --> 12:25We don't get to say I'm sorry to
12:25 --> 12:27someone and then hear someone say
12:27 --> 12:29I forgive you or we don't get
12:29 --> 12:31to hear someone say I'm sorry,
12:31 --> 12:33and then we don't get to actually say,
12:33 --> 12:34I forgive you back.
12:34 --> 12:36Sometimes we have to do it,
12:36 --> 12:39on our own with
12:39 --> 12:42someone like a chaplain or trusted
12:42 --> 12:47spiritual advisor and that can be a
12:47 --> 12:49process of letting go and
12:49 --> 12:51it's actually quite healing
12:51 --> 12:53to do that even on your own
12:53 --> 12:56when you're not able to do that
12:56 --> 12:57directly with the person.
12:58 --> 13:00You know, you bring up such a
13:00 --> 13:02good point about meditation.
13:02 --> 13:04And I know on this podcast
13:04 --> 13:06and on others,
13:06 --> 13:09we've talked a little bit about
13:09 --> 13:12meditation as being kind of one of
13:12 --> 13:16the key practices that can kind
13:16 --> 13:19of lead to not only a space
13:19 --> 13:22of calm but also happiness.
13:22 --> 13:25And there's now been some evidence
13:25 --> 13:27about how it actually can
13:27 --> 13:29reduce your cortisol
13:29 --> 13:31levels and reduce stress.
13:31 --> 13:35And so is that something
13:35 --> 13:38that you help people through?
13:39 --> 13:42I've led meditations,
13:42 --> 13:46guided meditations with people, with groups.
13:46 --> 13:50I also often recommend meditation apps.
13:50 --> 13:53There's some really good ones out there you
13:53 --> 13:56can search for that, they do the guiding for you.
13:56 --> 13:58And what's really wonderful
13:58 --> 14:00about those is that,
14:00 --> 14:01I actually just had a patient
14:01 --> 14:02who was saying I really want to
14:02 --> 14:03explore lots of different faiths.
14:03 --> 14:04And I love meditation.
14:04 --> 14:07I said, go on one of these apps because
14:07 --> 14:09you'll find practitioners of all different,
14:09 --> 14:10faiths and backgrounds.
14:10 --> 14:13And so I think that's just a wonderful
14:13 --> 14:15way to expose ourselves to different
14:15 --> 14:17approaches and to get a taste.
14:17 --> 14:20Fabulous. Well, we are going to take
14:20 --> 14:22a short break for a medical minute.
14:22 --> 14:24Please stay tuned to learn more
14:24 --> 14:25about palliative care and chaplaincy
14:25 --> 14:27with my guest, Jean Jeuland.
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15:41 --> 15:44You're listening to Connecticut Public Radio.
15:45 --> 15:47Welcome back to Yale Cancer Answers.
15:47 --> 15:50This is Dr. Anees Chagpar and I'm
15:50 --> 15:52joined today by my guest Jane Jeuland.
15:52 --> 15:54We're talking about palliative
15:54 --> 15:55care and chaplaincy.
15:55 --> 15:57And before the break we talked about
15:57 --> 16:00some of the big questions that people
16:00 --> 16:03may have for a chaplain at the end of life.
16:03 --> 16:06But I think one of the questions
16:06 --> 16:07that frequently comes up,
16:07 --> 16:10maybe not even so much at the end of
16:10 --> 16:13life but throughout the journey is
16:14 --> 16:15why is this happening
16:15 --> 16:18to me? How do you approach that?
16:18 --> 16:19Yeah, absolutely.
16:19 --> 16:23I get that question so, so often.
16:23 --> 16:27And when we kind of drill down for some
16:27 --> 16:30people they really do feel in a sense
16:30 --> 16:33that God could be punishing them that
16:33 --> 16:35this could be because they did something
16:35 --> 16:37wrong in the past and that God is now,
16:37 --> 16:40you know, punishing them, the divine
16:40 --> 16:42is punishing them with this illness.
16:42 --> 16:46And I really take time to kind
16:46 --> 16:49of unpack who do you think God is?
16:49 --> 16:52What is the divine to you?
16:52 --> 16:55And people will often articulate,
16:55 --> 16:58oh, a loving God or a God of peace,
16:58 --> 17:01a God of truth and someone I can trust,
17:01 --> 17:03And so when we kind of look
17:03 --> 17:05at that and look at, well,
17:05 --> 17:06would that same loving
17:06 --> 17:09God who loves you so deeply,
17:09 --> 17:12want to give you this punishment
17:12 --> 17:15of an illness, what did you do?
17:15 --> 17:17And so sometimes we talk about you
17:17 --> 17:20know what are the things that maybe
17:20 --> 17:22is weighing on their minds,
17:22 --> 17:24some moments of regret in their life.
17:24 --> 17:27And you know we talked before the
17:27 --> 17:29break too about sort of forgiving
17:29 --> 17:30family members or people
17:30 --> 17:32who are estranged from them.
17:32 --> 17:35There's also a lot of work to
17:35 --> 17:37be done on self-forgiveness
17:37 --> 17:41and really learning to let go.
17:42 --> 17:45And there's many traditions that say,
17:45 --> 17:46of course we want to live,
17:46 --> 17:48you know, an upright moral life.
17:48 --> 17:52But actually not accepting
17:52 --> 17:55God's forgiveness is
17:55 --> 17:56for some Christian traditions
17:56 --> 17:58a sin in itself.
17:58 --> 18:01And so kind of working at how do I
18:01 --> 18:04accept this love from the divine?
18:04 --> 18:09How do I come to know this forgiveness of
18:09 --> 18:13God when I myself can't even forgive myself?
18:13 --> 18:15And so we really do
18:15 --> 18:16try to really help
18:16 --> 18:17unpack that with patients.
18:17 --> 18:20And it's not done in an hour.
18:20 --> 18:23As I said, we meet over, you know,
18:23 --> 18:24months and sometimes years.
18:24 --> 18:28So that's one big piece.
18:28 --> 18:30I think another piece is, as I said,
18:31 --> 18:34people will say, why did God do this to me?
18:34 --> 18:36And as we drill down,
18:36 --> 18:38for some people,
18:38 --> 18:40they really do feel that sense of punishment.
18:40 --> 18:41For others, they say, you know what,
18:41 --> 18:42actually don't think that it's
18:42 --> 18:43God did this to me.
18:43 --> 18:46I don't think God is the
18:46 --> 18:47author of this illness.
18:47 --> 18:49My question is actually
18:49 --> 18:51when I think about it more,
18:51 --> 18:54why would God allow this to happen?
18:54 --> 18:57I believe God's loving,
18:57 --> 19:00the divine is forgiving,
19:00 --> 19:03full of peace and power.
19:03 --> 19:04So why,
19:04 --> 19:06why would God not stop
19:06 --> 19:09this from happening to me?
19:11 --> 19:14And that is a much deeper question.
19:14 --> 19:16I think that really gets to the heart of it.
19:16 --> 19:19It gets to those big existential
19:19 --> 19:21questions that I think we have,
19:21 --> 19:22as you said, not only when we're facing
19:22 --> 19:24the end of our life, but anytime,
19:24 --> 19:31we see war,
19:26 --> 19:29tragedy, the devastation.
19:29 --> 19:32And that's been caused by climate change.
19:32 --> 19:36Now, with hurricanes and tornadoes.
19:36 --> 19:38people do wonder, you know,
19:38 --> 19:40if God, if you've made this world,
19:40 --> 19:43if you made me, why,
19:43 --> 19:46why can't you stop all of this?
19:46 --> 19:49And so as much as I would like
19:49 --> 19:52to have an answer, you know,
19:52 --> 19:54these are conversations that
19:54 --> 19:56really we don't have answers to.
19:56 --> 19:59And we almost need to just sit
19:59 --> 20:01in the sorrow of it,
20:01 --> 20:04in the mystery of it, with each other.
20:05 --> 20:09And part of it I think
20:09 --> 20:13is God made man with free will
20:13 --> 20:16according to many faith traditions.
20:16 --> 20:20And so I think part of it might be,
20:20 --> 20:22as you kind of alluded to earlier,
20:22 --> 20:26this self blame, right. What did I do?
20:26 --> 20:28And whether that is, you know,
20:28 --> 20:30what did I do to deserve this,
20:30 --> 20:35that God did it to me or what is it that I
20:35 --> 20:38did to myself that promoted this, right.
20:38 --> 20:42Like, I smoked 26 packs
20:42 --> 20:45of cigarettes a day for 50 years.
20:45 --> 20:47And now look at me and what
20:47 --> 20:49have I done to my children?
20:49 --> 20:56And you know that sense of blame.
20:56 --> 20:59And I think your point was
20:59 --> 21:02very well taken about the need
21:02 --> 21:04to forgive and forgive yourself,
21:04 --> 21:08not only to forgive others and to
21:08 --> 21:11accept the divine forgiveness as well.
21:12 --> 21:15The other question that I
21:15 --> 21:18often come up against is that
21:18 --> 21:21people approach a cancer diagnosis
21:21 --> 21:24from 2 separate kind of avenues.
21:24 --> 21:29Some people say this is God's will,
21:29 --> 21:30and therefore,
21:30 --> 21:34you know I will walk in the path
21:35 --> 21:38that God has laid out for me.
21:38 --> 21:40And if this is my fate,
21:40 --> 21:45then so be it and in so doing they
21:45 --> 21:48may say I am not going to seek any
21:48 --> 21:51treatment because this is God's will.
21:51 --> 21:52Others, however,
21:52 --> 21:54I find come at it from a different
21:54 --> 21:55vantage point.
21:55 --> 21:57They say yes,
21:57 --> 22:02but God brought me to you and through
22:02 --> 22:06you I will be God's instrument to
22:06 --> 22:10help get rid of this cancer for me.
22:10 --> 22:13How do you kind of square those
22:13 --> 22:15two very opposing beliefs,
22:15 --> 22:18both of which invoke the divine?
22:18 --> 22:22And how do you help people to kind
22:22 --> 22:26of come to decisions about treatment
22:26 --> 22:30and accepting treatment when they
22:30 --> 22:33start using philosophies
22:33 --> 22:35that invoke the divine in their
22:35 --> 22:37thinking about whether they're
22:37 --> 22:39going to accept treatment or not?
22:41 --> 22:44So there are a couple of things
22:44 --> 22:46that come up for me and this
22:46 --> 22:48question and
22:48 --> 22:50the first part of what you're saying
22:50 --> 22:52that some people will kind of
22:54 --> 22:57think that this is God's will
22:57 --> 23:00and that I'm
23:00 --> 23:04not going to pursue treatment.
23:04 --> 23:07So when sometimes there are
23:07 --> 23:09times whether or not
23:09 --> 23:10people decide to pursue treatment,
23:10 --> 23:12they'll say my suffering
23:12 --> 23:14is part of God's will.
23:14 --> 23:19And that what I then kind of look for is,
23:19 --> 23:22this belief or philosophy
23:22 --> 23:26giving for this person and
23:26 --> 23:28life giving doesn't always mean,
23:28 --> 23:29you know, long life.
23:29 --> 23:31It means something
23:31 --> 23:32that fulfills this person,
23:32 --> 23:35is this something that really enriches
23:35 --> 23:37them and something that they hold dear.
23:37 --> 23:40And I'll give an example of a person
23:40 --> 23:43who actually had a belief in
23:43 --> 23:46holistic and natural approaches, felt very,
23:46 --> 23:50very strongly against any kind of chemicals,
23:50 --> 23:52lived her whole life,
23:52 --> 23:54adult life, you know,
23:54 --> 23:55really focusing on chemicals and
23:55 --> 23:57staying away from them and all of this.
23:57 --> 23:59And she really was trying
23:59 --> 24:01to articulate to the team,
24:01 --> 24:02this is meaningful to me,
24:02 --> 24:05to die of this cancer without
24:05 --> 24:06getting the chemo.
24:06 --> 24:08If you put this in me,
24:08 --> 24:11it will violate everything I've lived for.
24:11 --> 24:14And I had to kind of explain to the team
24:14 --> 24:16this is something she holds so dear.
24:16 --> 24:18I think it actually could be ethically
24:18 --> 24:20and morally damaging to do this,
24:20 --> 24:22even though we all know that
24:22 --> 24:23it could help her.
24:23 --> 24:25That's a very rare case.
24:25 --> 24:26But you know,
24:26 --> 24:29there are other times where people,
24:29 --> 24:32and this has come up actually quite often,
24:32 --> 24:35where patients will say, you know,
24:35 --> 24:38this has happened to me and I
24:38 --> 24:40believe God is going to heal me.
24:40 --> 24:43So therefore I do not need to
24:43 --> 24:45take any treatment.
24:45 --> 24:48And what can be really hard about
24:48 --> 24:51that is they watch as their
24:52 --> 24:55cancer grows and it's very,
24:55 --> 24:57very difficult than to square
24:57 --> 24:59sort of well then who is God?
24:59 --> 25:02And I thought God was supposed to
25:02 --> 25:05save me and all of this.
25:05 --> 25:07I have a wonderful patient that I've
25:07 --> 25:11worked with for years and years and she
25:11 --> 25:13actually wrote her story as well.
25:13 --> 25:16And we were in a group,
25:16 --> 25:19a group setting of evangelical patients.
25:21 --> 25:23Some of the patients that have come into
25:23 --> 25:25the group have said those very things,
25:25 --> 25:27let's just let
25:27 --> 25:30God heal us and not do this
25:30 --> 25:32chemo because it's sort of like
25:32 --> 25:33taking agency away from God.
25:33 --> 25:35If I do the chemo than I'm not
25:35 --> 25:37letting God do the miracle.
25:37 --> 25:38And this woman,
25:38 --> 25:41this brilliant woman just said exactly
25:41 --> 25:43kind of what you were saying, God
25:43 --> 25:47works through people to bring us healing.
25:47 --> 25:50God gave us this oncologist and this
25:50 --> 25:54medicine to help us in our healing.
25:54 --> 25:56We are beings who have been put
25:56 --> 25:58in this earth to be in community
25:58 --> 26:01and this is one of the ways that
26:01 --> 26:03community can help us.
26:03 --> 26:04And I implore you to take this,
26:04 --> 26:05this chemo treatment.
26:05 --> 26:07And the people have taken it and
26:07 --> 26:10felt so thankful, so grateful that
26:10 --> 26:13they were able to see God working in
26:13 --> 26:17their oncologist and science and in the
26:17 --> 26:19chemo treatments and the radiation and
26:19 --> 26:23that they also were able to pray.
26:23 --> 26:25And it doesn't just,
26:25 --> 26:28I say this to people too, in the ICU,
26:28 --> 26:30you know, just because
26:30 --> 26:34your loved one is on a ventilator or
26:34 --> 26:36because you're in chemo or not,
26:36 --> 26:37God can still do a miracle.
26:37 --> 26:39God can still do a miracle when you're
26:39 --> 26:43receiving chemo, you know.
26:43 --> 26:46So it's a lot
26:46 --> 26:47to unpack for sure.
26:49 --> 26:53And I think the other issue
26:53 --> 26:56that comes up is when your oncologist
26:56 --> 27:01and your doctors say
27:01 --> 27:05there is nothing else and
27:05 --> 27:09it's getting to that point
27:09 --> 27:14of accepting that and balancing
27:14 --> 27:21hope versus futility and how
27:21 --> 27:23do you help people through
27:23 --> 27:24that conversation?
27:26 --> 27:32So I had a patient a while
27:32 --> 27:35ago who NOTE Confidence: 0.9305729
27:35 --> 27:37they were even moving into Hospice
27:37 --> 27:40and the wife said to me, is it crazy
27:40 --> 27:42for me to keep praying for a miracle?
27:42 --> 27:44Is that crazy?
27:44 --> 27:46Is it crazy for me to try to hope?
27:46 --> 27:49And I often say to people,
27:49 --> 27:51it's wonderful to hope.
27:51 --> 27:53It's not crazy. It's wonderful, right?
27:53 --> 27:55It's wonderful to hope.
27:55 --> 27:57It's wonderful to keep praying
27:57 --> 27:59for a miracle no matter what.
27:59 --> 28:03The only time that it becomes
28:03 --> 28:06problematic I would say is when
28:06 --> 28:09we are praying for a miracle,
28:10 --> 28:12hoping for full cure and
28:12 --> 28:15that actually leads to a sense of
28:15 --> 28:17denial such that we are unable to
28:17 --> 28:19do the things we would want to do
28:19 --> 28:22if we knew that time was short.
28:22 --> 28:25So I say if it's not limiting what you
28:25 --> 28:29would do if you knew time was short,
28:29 --> 28:29absolutely,
28:29 --> 28:31100% hope,
28:31 --> 28:32hope, hope.
28:33 --> 28:34Jane Jeuland is an outpatient
28:34 --> 28:36palliative care chaplain with the
28:36 --> 28:38Smilow Palliative Care Program.
28:38 --> 28:40If you have questions, the address
28:40 --> 28:43is Cancer Answers at Yale dot Edu,
28:43 --> 28:45and past additions of the program
28:45 --> 28:47are available in audio and written
28:47 --> 28:48form at yalecancercenter.org.
28:48 --> 28:51We hope you'll join us next week to
28:51 --> 28:53learn more about the fight against
28:53 --> 28:55cancer here on Connecticut Public Radio.
28:55 --> 28:57Funding for Yale Cancer Answers is
28:57 --> 29:00provided by Smilow Cancer Hospital.

Information

Spirituality and Cancer with guest Jane Jeuland August 6, 2023 Yale Cancer Center visit: http://www.yalecancercenter.org email: canceranswers@yale.edu call: 203-785-4095